Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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1. Don't know.

2. Answer the points...

So is that it. You have nothing do you......

Gentlemen, this zero sum, adversarial approach is very tiresome. Just as there is just cause for the world to learn a lot more about why so many people are angry at the 'status quo', the same cuts both ways. Pete, you rightly lauded the wonderful achievement of the Juno team today so perhaps it would be more fruitful to approach these discussions with the aim of learning rather than browbeating?
 
The EU doesn't understand the meaning of the word Democracy, to them it's just an inconvenience that they can sometimes manipulate to use in their favour.

It's quite outrageous though. I think Farage should write to every member of every government throughout the EU suggesting that Democracy begins with a vote and that he would be willing to help anyone who wants a referendum......
 
Gentlemen, this zero sum, adversarial approach is very tiresome. Just as there is just cause for the world to learn a lot more about why so many people are angry at the 'status quo', the same cuts both ways. Pete, you rightly lauded the wonderful achievement of the Juno team today so perhaps it would be more fruitful to approach these discussions with the aim of learning rather than browbeating?

Fair enough....

Did you see that letter from an EU person suggesting that MP's should ignore the vote......
 
Hate? Why is it that Leave people have to swear and make up language the Remain voters are supposedly using.

Liverpool voted to remain. It just saddens me that on an Everton Forum the loudest voices are from the minority of the city.

Liverpool has a long history of understanding and acceptance. It goes against the fabric of the city to vote to leave the European community we have always embraced.

I was proud when the votes came in, although not surprised, that the city stood alone as a beacon for understanding and compassion for the people who lived in the city.

Mate, you clearly love the idea of Leave, but to many Liverpudlians it just sits wrong. We are a city of immigrants. The best city in the world, but of course that is just my opinion.

You can be happy with your vote to leave and increased fishing quotas, but the majority of the people in Liverpool are gutted. That's just how it is.

This is why forums are crap sometimes. If this was the pub we would agree to disagree and I'd get the ales in. But as it's a forum it's a continual battle to get the last word in being as snide as possible. So I'll let it go. Mate, I'm chuffed you believe strongly in your values. I'll 'leave' it there. Peace out.

Indeed, too harsh perhaps......
 
It's quite outrageous though. I think Farage should write to every member of every government throughout the EU suggesting that Democracy begins with a vote and that he would be willing to help anyone who wants a referendum......
Your right it's absolutely disgusting but that's for you. Flagrant disregard of democracy and the will of the majority combined with a total lack of scruples.

I do like the idea of Fararge doing as you suggest but I'm not sure he wants to fight anymore battles with the EU. Once we've left officially I wouldn't be surprised if he just retired all together. He's got nothing left to prove to anyone.
 
Last edited:
REFERENDUM WASN'T AN EXERCISE IN REAL DEMOCRACY:' READ THE FULL LETTER SENT FROM A EUROPEAN COMMISSION EMPLOYEE TO ALL MPS
I am writing to you to ask you to ensure with your fellow MPs that the house will reject any motion to invoke Art 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon to terminate the UK's membership of the EU that the government may bring before it. The reasons for this request are set out below.

1. The referendum is not legally binding on Parliament, as a matter of constitutional law.

2. A matter of such fundamental importance should not be decided on a bare majority. (By comparison, under company law, the constitution of a company can only be changed with a special majority - usually 75%.)

It cannot be right that the country's position on an issue of such gravity should be decided on such a narrow margin. Although the turnout was high for a UK election, nevertheless millions did not vote. Moreover, there is no legally specified majority which forms the basis of any decision.

3. The reasons for holding the referendum in the first place were flawed; as you are aware, it was effectively held for domestic party political reasons, yet the outcome will shape Britain's and Europe's future for years to come.

4. The vote on a decision involving such complex issues was made by an electorate that felt it was uninformed. One poll found over a third of voters said they did not feel they had enough knowledge to make an informed decision, and prior to the vote interviewed voters in the media could be heard saying the same thing.

So the vote was won by a less than 4% margin, yet over a third of voters felt ill-equipped to make a decision. And indeed many polled voters' perceptions were very wide of the mark (eg estimating EU migrants to make up 15% of the population, when the actual figure is 5%).

Moreover some Leave voters can already be heard in media interviews expressing surprise and regret about the possible consequences.

5. The referendum was not an exercise in real democracy owing to the amount of mis-information put out – particularly in the lead up to the vote, but also for years previously.

Voters in the UK have always been peculiarly under-informed by governments of all stripes about the UK's international obligations and how it handles them, whether in relation to the EU, the UN, the WTO or NATO.

But the campaigns conducted by both sides did not help people to get to grips with understanding the issues, and a large number of untruths were deliberately circulated. This was compounded by media coverage trying to aim for a strict balance, starkly pitting Remainers against Leavers to the detriment of informed (and yes, undoubtedly dull and un-media friendly) discussion.

There are real arguments to be made about the strengths and weaknesses of the EU system - but we have not had that debate yet. Indeed, as you know, the second most googled question in the UK about the EU the day after the vote was 'What is the EU?'

6. The UK being a Parliamentary democracy, it is you who have been elected to make decisions on voters' behalf - especially decisions as complex as this one. The facts about, and the arguments for and against EU membership should have been debated seriously and lengthily in Parliament.

A one-off binary public referendum is not a suitable tool for this kind of decision. It is Parliament that decides fundamental issues of international relations such as acts of war. This is of at least the equivalent significance and thus Parliament must decide.

7. The decision to remain in the EU was supported by a number of national and local identities, notably Scotland, Northern Ireland and London. No other electoral decision making in the UK ignores these national and local identities.

The constituency system, on the contrary, gives effect to them. (Some other countries' systems pay attention to this. For example, I understand that in Australia, a Federal referendum is not deemed successful unless it achieves a majority of those voting nationwide, as well as separate majorities in a majority of states, i.e. 4 out of 6 states. In addition, voting is compulsory there.)

8. A YouGov poll has suggested that 75% of voters under the age of 35 voted to remain. It would be a travesty of democracy for such a long term decision to be made contrary to the wishes of those who have most at stake and represent the future of the country.

9. It is plainly against the interests of the country for the UK to leave the EU. The fallout to date is more than enough evidence.

The above arguments underline that any action to empower the government to invoke Art 50 in these circumstances is neither democratically legitimate nor in the interests of the country and its citizens. A deeply felt protest vote has carried the day, but the answer is not to exit the EU.

This would not be to ignore the result of the referendum. The concerns of those who voted to leave need to be addressed.

They are real, and have arisen from issues which are extremely important but which do not appear to be well understood, nor well explained.

Notably these include: (1) the limits of national sovereignty in the context of globalisation and global financial markets; (2) massive migratory flows as a result of civil war and failing states; (3) EU migrants working in the UK in a context of not only under-funded health and education provision, but also a different system than other Member States (many of which can and do try to ensure that free movement is for workers and others who can support themselves); and (4) how decisions in Brussels are actually arrived at by the Member States (on any given day a large proportion of the 'faceless bureaucrats' in Brussels are Member State government officials attending meetings in the Council to shape and decide on EU law), as well as what their effect actually is in the UK. But the UK doesn't have leave the EU to address these issues. If the vote had gone the other way these issues would still need to be addressed.

'Political suicide', I hear people saying. But some MPs have committed that already, and now the parties are in such disarray that it looks as though resolving that will take up all MPs energy.

MPs should now work to focus on the overall interests of the country rather than on yet more internal political fighting, this time about who should lead the main political parties.

UK voters will not be best served by further domestic political fights, now that the larger issues at stake are starting to become apparent.

I am writing to all MPs as I don't have one of my own. (Full disclosure: I am a UK citizen who has been in Brussels for well over the 15-year cut-off point, working in the European Commission – yes, I am aware that you may see me as a turkey trying to overturn a vote for Christmas; I am currently on unpaid leave; am resident in Belgium, being able to support myself and maintain my own health insurance to the satisfaction of the Belgian authorities, in line with EU rules on freedom of movement; and am at present in Beijing, financing myself to study Chinese, which accounts for the postmark on the envelope of the mailed version of this letter, also sent by email.)

Yours sincerely

[Name redacted due to data protection rules]

The person is a UK citizen living in Brussels who works for the EU. They have wrote this letter as a private citizen who is on unpaid leave and who is in Beijing studying Chinese. Nothing to do with the EU.
 
Fair enough....

Did you see that letter from an EU person suggesting that MP's should ignore the vote......

Yes, I saw the letter from the British EU employee (akin to a civil servant). I think pertinent to my request in my previous message, even though this person clearly hopes that Britain will remain in the EU, they do nonetheless hope that efforts are made to understand why so many are so disaffected around the world at the moment.
 
Gentlemen, this zero sum, adversarial approach is very tiresome. Just as there is just cause for the world to learn a lot more about why so many people are angry at the 'status quo', the same cuts both ways. Pete, you rightly lauded the wonderful achievement of the Juno team today so perhaps it would be more fruitful to approach these discussions with the aim of learning rather than browbeating?

Bruce,

You quoted my post without referencing it in your reply.

My point '1' reply was to the question as to whether there was automatic censoring of rude words. I did not know the answer to that.

My point '2' reply was simply asking him to respond to the points I had made. He had made no response to what I believe were valid points. I understand that he is well within his rights to remain silent. I was just asking for a reply.

Hope you understand where I was coming from...
 
hullefc,
Re your post #5390
What have you chosen to 'redact' the name of the person who sent that letter, if it was, in effect, an open letter to all MPs. Surely that does not come within the ambit of the Data Protection Act...
 
@The Esk

As mentioned - this is an attempt by Jean Claude Juncker - to cause the UK to act precipitously and prematurely.

A case of Juncker trying to antagonise a negotiating party into making a mistake - see emboldened coloured bit.

What Mr Juncker fails to grasp is that the UK isn't a small little country like Greece or Luxembourg. It actually has expert negotiators that it can hire and aren't stupid.


Only stupid politicians would consider triggering Article 50 early. When that is done - the negotiating position the UK has is lost.

This is an attempt to antagonise the UK into making a mistake.

I'm a REMAIN voter. However, I'm not stupid. Despite what that idiot Juncker tries to claim the patronising tool. Can tell precisely what he is doing.

If the UK triggers Article 50. Juncker and co- will refuse to negotiate. Then sit it out. Trying to push us onto WTO terms then to 'punish' the UK.

Fact.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36712550

Brexit leaders 'leaving the boat' - EU Commission boss Juncker
  • 4 hours ago
  • From the sectionEurope
EU Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has accused Brexit campaigners Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage of quitting when things got difficult.

"The Brexit heroes of yesterday are now the sad Brexit heroes of today," he told the European Parliament.

There was anger among MEPs over the UK's 23 June vote to leave the EU.

Mr Juncker spoke of Leave camp "retro nationalists". "Patriots don't resign when things get difficult, they stay," he told MEPs in Strasbourg.

He also said he did not understand why those in the Brexit camp in the UK would want to wait before beginning the formal withdrawal process.

"Instead of developing the plan, they are leaving the boat," he said.

_90290820_junckernewafp5july.jpg


Boris Johnson, former London mayor and a leading Brexit campaigner, caused a sensation last Thursday when he pulled out of the Conservative leadership race.

He had been considered a favourite to replace David Cameron as party leader and prime minister.

UK Independence Party (UKIP) leader Nigel Farage resigned on Monday, saying he wanted his "life back", as he had fulfilled his political ambition of putting the UK on a path to exit from the EU, nicknamed "Brexit".

Mr Farage has clashed repeatedly with Mr Juncker in the European Parliament.

Brexiteers accuse the Commission of dictating policy to the UK and expanding its powers to the detriment of Europe's citizens. The Commission drafts EU laws and polices the bloc's regulations.

UK 'collapsed'
Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte told MEPs that the Brexit vote was "extremely unfortunate", especially for the UK. "That country now has collapsed - politically, economically, monetarily and constitutionally, and you will have years ahead of you to get out of this mess."

The referendum result caused political and economic turmoil in the UK. The pound slumped to a 31-year low against the US dollar and there are fears that the UK is heading for a recession again.
 
hullefc,
Re your post #5390
What have you chosen to 'redact' the name of the person who sent that letter, if it was, in effect, an open letter to all MPs. Surely that does not come within the ambit of the Data Protection Act...

I haven't redacted anything.
 
Bruce,

You quoted my post without referencing it in your reply.

My point '1' reply was to the question as to whether there was automatic censoring of rude words. I did not know the answer to that.

My point '2' reply was simply asking him to respond to the points I had made. He had made no response to what I believe were valid points. I understand that he is well within his rights to remain silent. I was just asking for a reply.

Hope you understand where I was coming from...

Just saying 'answer the points' comes across very abruptly, which I'm sure wasn't what you intended. We've had perpetual debates on here about whether to allow political discussions because they are so ripe for fall outs, and the last thing we want is for blues to fight one another :) We're all on the same side here, regardless of how we vote.
 
hullefc,
Re your post #5390
What have you chosen to 'redact' the name of the person who sent that letter, if it was, in effect, an open letter to all MPs. Surely that does not come within the ambit of the Data Protection Act...

The MP Henry Smith put part of the letter on social media and didn't put this bit,

"I am writing to all MPs as I don't have one of my own. (Full disclosure: I am a UK citizen who has been in Brussels for well over the 15-year cut-off point, working in the European Commission – yes, I am aware that you may see me as a turkey trying to overturn a vote for Christmas; I am currently on unpaid leave; am resident in Belgium, being able to support myself and maintain my own health insurance to the satisfaction of the Belgian authorities, in line with EU rules on freedom of movement; and am at present in Beijing, financing myself to study Chinese, which accounts for the postmark on the envelope of the mailed version of this letter, also sent by email.)".

A very poor show by an MP who doesn't fully reveal all the information and only a doctored version. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with having an 'agenda'?
 
Hate? Why is it that Leave people have to swear and make up language the Remain voters are supposedly using.

Liverpool voted to remain. It just saddens me that on an Everton Forum the loudest voices are from the minority of the city.

Liverpool has a long history of understanding and acceptance. It goes against the fabric of the city to vote to leave the European community we have always embraced.

I was proud when the votes came in, although not surprised, that the city stood alone as a beacon for understanding and compassion for the people who lived in the city.

Mate, you clearly love the idea of Leave, but to many Liverpudlians it just sits wrong. We are a city of immigrants. The best city in the world, but of course that is just my opinion.

You can be happy with your vote to leave and increased fishing quotas, but the majority of the people in Liverpool are gutted. That's just how it is.

This is why forums are crap sometimes. If this was the pub we would agree to disagree and I'd get the ales in. But as it's a forum it's a continual battle to get the last word in being as snide as possible. So I'll let it go. Mate, I'm chuffed you believe strongly in your values. I'll 'leave' it there. Peace out.
Leave vote had nothing to do with immigration to most half educated people...
 
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