Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Walken]

Bruce, 51.89% 48.11% are the numbers that matter.

And you've the cheek to compare remainers with kopites with your '6 times la' rhetoric

 

[Xizor]

This has no bearing on what @Bruce Wayne quoted, to be honest. All it does is make it seem that there's no real argument against it or it would have been put forward

The average Brexiter-on-the-street has no rebuttals against even the mostly barely cogent arguments against Brexit. This is because Brexit is less a political project for most people than an ideological one, and debating most Brexiters is akin to debating someone about their religion. There's no point in bringing reason, rationality or logic into the discussion because no matter how much you try to pin them down, you'll never defeat their own internal narrative that they really feel right on this. Like religion, the wider case for Brexit (as opposed the specific wants of the 1% who are going to make a personal killing from it) is all based on appeal to emotion - despite labelling arguments for remain as 'project fear', it was Farage who stood in front of that poster of a refugee convoy triggering a fear reflex in people already uncomfortable with how many 'others' are already in their society. Similarly, even in this thread I've seen empty appeals to nostalgia, as if a single country can turn the clock back without any regard for how the rest of the world is now and thrive on 1950s terms.

It's no surprise that Brexit has taken on this near-religious fervour in the outlook of its supporters - voting Leave correlates with social conservatism and lower educational standards (please note this is distinct from intelligence, it relates more a trained ability to analyse data and think critically), both of which also correlate to membership of organised religion.

So when you see those wild-eyed Evangelicals raking in millions and going around the US in a private jet brought from church donations, or hear about cult leaders that inspire such zealous loyalty in followers they submit themselves to any whim, or even the latest group of fanatical jihadists trying to set up a patriarchal theocracy in a large area of the Middle East, and you think 'how can people fall in behind such nonsense', you need look only at our own gallant Brexiters, following the guidance of their high priests, marching all the way down to the cliff edge they now believe they wanted all along.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

 

[peteblue]

A week is a long time in politics, 12 is positively an aeon.

Indeed. There will be many twists and turns as this is played out......

 

[peteblue]

The average Brexiter-on-the-street has no rebuttals against even the mostly barely cogent arguments against Brexit. This is because Brexit is less a political project for most people than an ideological one, and debating most Brexiters is akin to debating someone about their religion. There's no point in bringing reason, rationality or logic into the discussion because no matter how much you try to pin them down, you'll never defeat their own internal narrative that they really feel right on this. Like religion, the wider case for Brexit (as opposed the specific wants of the 1% who are going to make a personal killing from it) is all based on appeal to emotion - despite labelling arguments for remain as 'project fear', it was Farage who stood in front of that poster of a refugee convoy triggering a fear reflex in people already uncomfortable with how many 'others' are already in their society. Similarly, even in this thread I've seen empty appeals to nostalgia, as if a single country can turn the clock back without any regard for how the rest of the world is now and thrive on 1950s terms.

It's no surprise that Brexit has taken on this near-religious fervour in the outlook of its supporters - voting Leave correlates with social conservatism and lower educational standards (please note this is distinct from intelligence, it relates more a trained ability to analyse data and think critically), both of which also correlate to membership of organised religion.

So when you see those wild-eyed Evangelicals raking in millions and going around the US in a private jet brought from church donations, or hear about cult leaders that inspire such zealous loyalty in followers they submit themselves to any whim, or even the latest group of fanatical jihadists trying to set up a patriarchal theocracy in a large area of the Middle East, and you think 'how can people fall in behind such nonsense', you need look only at our own gallant Brexiters, following the guidance of their high priests, marching all the way down to the cliff edge they now believe they wanted all along.

Nice try. We’ve done the Racist bit, the older voter claim, the uneducated, now we are fanatical religious zealots. If I changed the word Brexiteer with Remainer the same claim would be recognised. The reality of course is that the Remainers believe that they are superior to those who voted Leave and therefore they should ignore the democratic vote of the people and ignore the votes previous taken within Parliament in enacting article 50. I know what I am, and my education, industrial background and experience brought me to the conclusion that leaving was in the best interests for both my country and my family. I also respect a democratic vote. Do you really know what you are ?.......

 

[peteblue]

This is worth a read.

I especially liked item 6 with the Eu not wishing to see a Singapore on Thames, I wonder why ?....

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I especially liked item 6 with the Eu not wishing to see a Singapore on Thames, I wonder why ?....

Firstly Pete, there's been no suggest that this is what would happen, so you're projecting your own wishes onto the flip flopping canvas of the charlatans that are leading this process. Secondly, the actual cities that the Thames flows through, such as Oxford, Reading and of course London all voted strongly to remain, because they appreciate that much of the success they enjoy is a result of EU membership. Not only do you take every opportunity to talk London down, but you also dismiss the views of remain voting cities at every opportunity. So please don't pretend you give two hoots about the cities on the Thames.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

PM vows to 'supercharge' UK science with fast-track visas

Boris Johnson wants a new fast-track visa system to attract leading scientists to work in the UK.

www.bbc.co.uk

Royal Society think No Deal would be rubbish, but I'm sure @Methuselah is working personally to make up the scientific shortfall in his shed.

It's also worth remembering that for all the talk of making scientist visas easier (they don't say quite what this means), at the moment, not only do EU scientists not have any visa requirements at all (so it's literally as easy as it could be), but there is tremendous cooperation between labs and researchers across Europe, which the government have been much less vocal about.

This is a perfect example of the non-tariff benefits of closer integration that all the waffle about "we just want to trade" ignores. The sad thing is that you can forgive the lay person not understanding the scientific landscape in Europe when they initially cast their vote, but if nothing else, the last three years have provided no shortage of opportunities to learn, yet they consistently refuse to do so. It's only made more bewildering by their simultaneous assertion that Britain will be better off out of it, despite the scientific community who drive so much of our innovative output saying otherwise. It's idiocy on a national scale.

 

[peteblue]

Firstly Pete, there's been no suggest that this is what would happen, so you're projecting your own wishes onto the flip flopping canvas of the charlatans that are leading this process. Secondly, the actual cities that the Thames flows through, such as Oxford, Reading and of course London all voted strongly to remain, because they appreciate that much of the success they enjoy is a result of EU membership. Not only do you take every opportunity to talk London down, but you also dismiss the views of remain voting cities at every opportunity. So please don't pretend you give two hoots about the cities on the Thames.

So by your own logic the majority of the country, outside of cities, appreciate that their own success is not a result of EU membership. Why do those cities believe that their own success is down to belonging to the EU, and not as a result of their own endeavours ?......

 

[peteblue]

It's also worth remembering that for all the talk of making scientist visas easier (they don't say quite what this means), at the moment, not only do EU scientists not have any visa requirements at all (so it's literally as easy as it could be), but there is tremendous cooperation between labs and researchers across Europe, which the government have been much less vocal about.

This is a perfect example of the non-tariff benefits of closer integration that all the waffle about "we just want to trade" ignores. The sad thing is that you can forgive the lay person not understanding the scientific landscape in Europe when they initially cast their vote, but if nothing else, the last three years have provided no shortage of opportunities to learn, yet they consistently refuse to do so. It's only made more bewildering by their simultaneous assertion that Britain will be better off out of it, despite the scientific community who drive so much of our innovative output saying otherwise. It's idiocy on a national scale.

Is it one way traffic ? Does the U.K. just take from this scientific research or do we indeed give something back ?....

 

[Methuselah]

And you've the cheek to compare remainers with kopites with your '6 times la' rhetoric

Just posting facts instead of fantasy.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

So by your own logic the majority of the country, outside of cities, appreciate that their own success is not a result of EU membership. Why do those cities believe that their own success is down to belonging to the EU, and not as a result of their own endeavours ?......

Well firstly, a common feature of many of the areas that voted heavily to leave is that they aren't a success at all. Secondly, while I can't speak for millions of people, just as partnerships are common in business, so they are across society, and being in an environment where those partnerships are easier to forge and maintain is beneficial. My success (or otherwise) is for sure down to what I put in, but it's also an inevitable consequence of those around me. I'm not sure how a man of your experience can't appreciate that?

Is it one way traffic ? Does the U.K. just take from this scientific research or do we indeed give something back ?....

It's not a zero sum world Pete. To take free movement as an example. People may come here to study at university, gaining valuable skills in the process. They may then participate in research projects with peers across Europe, or start a company (a disproportionate number of both Ph.Ds and entrepreneurs are migrants). They may return to their homeland complete with the new knowledge and perspectives gained in Britain. These are all beautiful things and not viewed in a zero sum way of taking or giving. It's just people living their lives.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

It's no surprise that Brexit has taken on this near-religious fervour in the outlook of its supporters - voting Leave correlates with social conservatism and lower educational standards (please note this is distinct from intelligence, it relates more a trained ability to analyse data and think critically), both of which also correlate to membership of organised religion.

Really don't believe this helps it as it's extremely hard not to put it across without sounding superior, not read or heard this trail of thought without coming away cringing because of patronising nature, unintended or not!

Also analyse of data and critical thinking has little say in democratic processes, and all it has ever achieved in the EU debate is a strengthening resolve in leave camp.

Few home truths need telling before you break idealogical resolve of Brexit, and what lead to deep unhappiness of the EU project in the UK.

Trouble is many of those who shout the loudest in remain as much as they do in leave, have much to answer from domestic policy they have pursued or kowtow, this pursuit has lead to this divide, both sides use Brexit to hide their political and economic legacies.

 

[Aberblue]

Nice try. We’ve done the Racist bit, the older voter claim, the uneducated, now we are fanatical religious zealots. If I changed the word Brexiteer with Remainer the same claim would be recognised. The reality of course is that the Remainers believe that they are superior to those who voted Leave and therefore they should ignore the democratic vote of the people and ignore the votes previous taken within Parliament in enacting article 50. I know what I am, and my education, industrial background and experience brought me to the conclusion that leaving was in the best interests for both my country and my family. I also respect a democratic vote. Do you really know what you are ?.......

The difference is that Remainers' worries and fears are based on empirical data and expert opinion, rather than emotion.

I know experts sometimes get things wrong, but on the whole I'd rather believe a surgeon or doctor who has had years of training and real world experience over an unqualified faith healer.

 

[peteblue]

It's not a zero sum world Pete. To take free movement as an example. People may come here to study at university, gaining valuable skills in the process. They may then participate in research projects with peers across Europe, or start a company (a disproportionate number of both Ph.Ds and entrepreneurs are migrants). They may return to their homeland complete with the new knowledge and perspectives gained in Britain. These are all beautiful things and not viewed in a zero sum way of taking or giving. It's just people living their lives.

I understand entirely Bruce, but amazingly these things also happened before we joined the Common Market. They will also continue after the U.K. is no longer within the political EU grouping. My point of course is that it’s a two way street, and when all parties gain then even the silly buggers running the U.K. and the EU will understand and make life simpler with appropriate agreements.....