Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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@peteblue , you've spoken a lot about zero tariffs on imports (which as the same would almost certainly not apply to exports I can't ever see flying, but y'know), but all of these non-tariff advantages apply to the service sector, especially around free movement of people, data and passporting. Has Boris discussed any of these things?
 

@peteblue , you've spoken a lot about zero tariffs on imports (which as the same would almost certainly not apply to exports I can't ever see flying, but y'know), but all of these non-tariff advantages apply to the service sector, especially around free movement of people, data and passporting. Has Boris discussed any of these things?

Sorry Bruce, the link doesn’t seem to work.....
 
"
Steadily, but without taking a single step back, Brexiteers have used the referendum to claim a mandate for ever more extreme measures. First, this was to push for a hard form of Brexit as the only kind that would properly respect the referendum mandate, taking the UK out of the Single Market and Customs Union - already a distortion of the actual mandate that was given, far beyond what the close result should have allowed. Then court rulings, and the judges who issued them, that empowered Parliament, regardless of what Parliament may decide on the issue, were deemed to be a violation of the referendum mandate. Then the referendum was used to insist on No Deal as the only acceptable form of Brexit. And most recently, civil servants who do not pass the Brexit loyalty test are also set to be hounded out of their posts. By a series of incremental steps, Brexiteers have used the referendum mandate to declare a right not just to leave the European Union but to reorganise UK politics as a whole and to reorganise it according to their beliefs. It is not enough for the UK to be formally out of the EU, it must become a Brexit state through and through.

It is time for the rest of the population to come out and say something clearly: the referendum result did not empower Brexiteers to make these changes. Indeed, beyond the specifics of the referendum campaign, the result could not have empowered such massive change. What Brexiteers are effectively trying to claim is that the 2016 referendum result not only allows them to implement a specific policy but rather it gives them a monopoly in controlling the UK's entire political system. They have sought to instrumentalise a limited mandate and turn it into an unlimited one. This claim is not only in violation of the reality of the referendum campaign and the ideas that people were being asked to vote on, it is a conception of the referendum mandate that is in direct contradiction with the fundamental tenets of liberal democracy.

This has not come entirely out of the blue. Dominic Cummings, one of the architects of the Vote Leave campaign, has regularly expressed his desire to 'reform' the civil service, going back to before the referendum. Though the claim he makes is that he wants to see a civil service which is more efficient and more flexible, in practice his 'solution' to a civil service that does not always comply to his political worldview is to place the civil service, including the hiring and firing of individuals, under complete political control. A political control that would, naturally, also be dominated by Brexiteers. This is typical of the arguments Brexiteers are making about the civil service now in the context of Darroch's resignation. Though they argue it would be about restoring competence and ability, the fundamental test being applied at every turn is political loyalty - there's no explanation of how competence is ever assessed, beyond the extent to which civil servants are willing to act as yes-men to politicians (a system that any reasonable observer could determine would reduce rather than enhance competence). The final result therefore is a vision for a powerful executive controlling a political civil service. Combine this with the demands for a tame judiciary and a 'patriotic' press and the dangers become more than self-evident. These Brexiteers would only be satisfied by a political reorganisation that would effectively eliminate checks and balances. This is the authoritarian tendency of hard right populist regimes that we have seen develop across the world. It is the model of 'illiberal democracy' that Viktor Orbán has made his trademark. And we have seen the results of this kind of system. Far from enhancing or restoring 'true' democracy, it entails its destruction as executive power becomes overwhelming and uncontrollable.

This fits perfectly with the populist conception of democracy more generally. The people are considered to have a single will and for democracy to be truly alive, that will must be able to act completely unimpeded. Politicians, once they have received a mandate, should be able to do absolutely whatever they feel is necessary to execute that mandate. Adding any constraints to this power is unacceptable as it is believed that these constraints would be obstacles to the democratic will of the people. This idea is of course entirely flawed. It does not leave room for legitimate opposition or the force of the law to limit the powers of the government. Without these factors, the best outcome is usually that government becomes corrupt and inefficient. The worst is that democracy is destroyed entirely."

Full Article
 
Bruce, Boris will not be running anything. There will be ministers and civil servants to do that. Government, as you know is quite large. Boris as PM will set the tone, a can do attitude, an infectious form of optimism, and a broad strategic direction. The last thing we need is another PM who thinks they need to do everything. CEO’s set the strategy, others lead the delivery of projects via large and distributed teams of professionals. Horses for courses. Hunt meanwhile shows himself up by going on about how great a negotiator he is, and ran his own business. He ran a Micky Mouse training course data company that just happened to have excellent political support, it’s staffing and turnover was minuscule. Also he ran the NHS, who are not exactly renown for driving a hard bargain with suppliers, nor for putting value driving contracts in place. I just wish Boris or someone would ask him what were these large negotiations he has conducted, with whom and what were the outcomes, and also point out that running a country is not a one man/woman job.....


From your first few sentences you seem to accept the fact that "faceless bureaucrats" actually run governments? Or "unelected jobsworths"? Funny how that's okay for Westminster but cause for denouncrment in Brussels?

And comparing Boris to a CEO is completely wrong. He's a bumbling Chairman except here he'll be an Executive Chairman with all power to his fingertips and constantly exposed to a slip of the tongue via the media.
 
Boris is a tit, but the problem is so are all the other people in Westminster (along with those civil servants who are supposed to guide them). Not one of them have a grasp on the actual day to day runnings of a port of entry. They’re blinded by the actual requirements and needs for the sake of their own personal views.

Boris is an easy target because he’s a bumbling buffoon, but everyone of the cabinet and shadow cabinet use these issues has a tactical move in far bigger game
 
Boris is a tit, but the problem is so are all the other people in Westminster (along with those civil servants who are supposed to guide them). Not one of them have a grasp on the actual day to day runnings of a port of entry. They’re blinded by the actual requirements and needs for the sake of their own personal views.

Boris is an easy target because he’s a bumbling buffoon, but everyone of the cabinet and shadow cabinet use these issues has a tactical move in far bigger game

He’s not a bumbling buffoon. He’s a cynical dog whistling xenophobe and shouldn’t be put in the ‘oh everyone’s as bad as each other’ because they’re not and he’s a lot worse
 
But they are and he should be

Where's your proof? Where's the letterbox comment from other politicians? Where's the picaninines? Where's the letting a British citizen remain in jail in Iran? Where's the desire to bring back a form of Thatcherism? Where's any of the snide political careerism that hurts the country and hurts poor, non-white people the most? You may dislike all politicians (and I think you are wrong to) but pretending they are all as duplicitously evil and bigoted as posh PM to be is at best nonsense and at worst dangerous
 
Where's your proof? Where's the letterbox comment from other politicians? Where's the picaninines? Where's the letting a British citizen remain in jail in Iran? Where's the desire to bring back a form of Thatcherism? Where's any of the snide political careerism that hurts the country and hurts poor, non-white people the most? You may dislike all politicians (and I think you are wrong to) but pretending they are all as duplicitously evil and bigoted as posh PM to be is at best nonsense and at worst dangerous

I never once brought any of that into it, you did. I spoke of incompetence to deliver the requirements at a point of entry.

But carry on
 
I never once brought any of that into it, you did. I spoke of incompetence to deliver the requirements at a point of entry.

But carry on

I'm sorry that I took your points as part of a larger narrative if it wasn't meant like that.

However, I do maintain that you have no proof that politicians in general just use this as part of a grander scheme. Even if they did, they are not about to become our unchallenged PM. It frustrates me that the whole 'well they're just as bad' is some form of argument and I apologise if I took yours to be more than it was
 
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