Current Affairs EU In or Out

[peteblue]

That would be be very much the case if there had been consensus over leaving and a big majority had voted in favour of Brexit only for parliament to ignore the wishes of the vast majority of the people.

But it was a photo finish and there is no great majority to rise up against the referendum result being binned.

And as it stands almost half the country is having its views totally ignored as Brexit struts around acting like they have a huge mandate to withdraw

My own view is that the people behind Brexit do not have a clue what to do next.

They never expected to win and are now staring into the headlights like frightened rabbits.

Johnson and Farage have already exited the stage and are leaving others to pick up the mess that negotiations to leave will be.

And of course those two gentlemen will not have to live with the likely austerity measures, on a scale not yet seen in the years since the Tories took over.

They live in a financial cocoon.....Farage ironically in a nest nicely feathered by the EU as he pocketed over a million quid in wages, expenses and pension provision as he ranted about us leaving that organisation for years.

At some stage those people whom voted Brexit in deprived areas of the North East, South Wales, Cornwall and other points will be faced with the harsh reality of what Brexit means to them.

The penny will drop and we will see a tidal wave of resentment toward the people who have brought us to this point but haven't the foggiest notion of what to do next.

Thankfully however, I am confident commonsense is going to prevail.

Already some of the country's leading constitutional lawyers and businesses have banded together and are going to challenge the validity of how binding this referendum result is in a parliamentary democracy.

They are arguing that this Article 50 cannot be invoked without a vote in parliament.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-legal-legislation-constitution-a7105181.html


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-to-stop-brexit-without-parliamentary-debate/

I would think such a vote will be held against the already dawned reality that Brexit's campaign was based on one lie after another and I am already getting a sense of regret among people I know whom voted to leave.

This is not over yet....not by a long chalk.

You say "there is no great majority to rise up against the referendum result being binned"...... 17,500,000 is quite a lot of people.....5X the population of Wales, 3X the population of Scotland or the equivalent of the 7th largest country in the EU...........this is over.........

 

[hullefc]

WTO rules will apply at the very least.

However, yes tariffs could be applied onto the UK, which the UK would recipricate. Which would hurt the German automakers as much as UK (which houses multiple multinationals particuarly in car engine manufacturing).

However, lets not get ahead of ourselves.


His point is nonsense because the Civil Service provides invaluable support to the government to carry out the mandate of the people and to keep the state functioning.

So to describe them as bureaucrats is totally OTT.

Not all EU organisations are 'bureaucrats' either.

Think theres an awful lot of characaturisation going on in this thread.


There's bad politicians that like to portray certain organisations - as bad. When they tell them no. However, when these people are talking about life and death type issues then they're not actually 'bureaucrats' are they?

Theres a number of EU organisations that actually do things that the UK government might now have to pay for. For our own version. Tax payers money.

Nothing to do with Jean Claude Juncker or his lot either.

The un-elected civil servants are more than 'keeping the state functioning'. As Maude said, “Ministers from this Government, and in previous ones, have too often found that decisions they have made do not then get implemented,” he will say.

“There are cases when permanent secretaries have blocked agreed Government policy from going ahead or advised other officials not to implement ministerial decisions - that is unacceptable".

Blocking government policy by un-elected civil servants is undemocratic and nothing to do with 'keeping the state functioning'.

 

[roydo]

I have spoken to a lot of people over the months also. I would hardly call any of them enthusiasts. Just ordinary people thinking the matter through, and actually discussing it with others, of both persuasions (yes, that actually did go on!). Post-election, it was then a case of, decision made, move on.

Tell me, what is 'A better informed democratic vote'? Is it Cameron's £9.5 million leaflet campaign? Is it Osborne's threat of a budget that would make us all poorer because of the swingeing cuts? Now this is the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer we are talking about here. Two out-and-out LIARS!!! The two people who were basically running the country, and were lying through their teeth to us to get 'THEIR' result. Are they not supposedly 'better informed' than any of us? They are, but by God, they never operated on a level, neutral, playing field, and never intended to.

So I'm sorry, I do not take, nor am I taken in by, for one second, this pious, moral high ground notion of 'A better informed democratic vote'. The democratic vote has been done; you will never get anything 'better informed', only opinions from talking heads on TV, from the Captains of Industry, the Baker and Economists, and the politicians. And you know what? The majority of the population saw through the bull merde and voted for what THEY thought was in the best interest of the country...

Fair enough. Lets just crack on and see how it all works out then.

And if the sunny post EU uplands aint quite as sunny as you think they will be, sure you will be ok with that fully informed electorate that started the car.

 

[1966efc]

You'll always find a lawyer ready to argue - especially where big bucks are involved.

The size of the majority is wholly irrelevant ... no provision for "less than a million and we go again" in the act.

I know nobody who regrets their vote. Both of us are assuming something on the basis of a smallish circle of acquaintance.

This really is over. No serious politician has argued otherwise and won't because they know the dangers.

Damn. I should qualify this. It's over in the sense that the idea of another referendum is for the armchair enthusiast. It isn't over in the sense that every possible twist, turn and obfuscation will be used to keep things virtually the same. That's here Ukip are going to make their name in future years ... "They let you down. We're the only ones you can trust to obey the will of the people".

In my opinion.

 

[SNova]

Do people think Farage was in government or something?

 

[bizzaro]

The un-elected civil servants are more than 'keeping the state functioning'. As Maude said, “Ministers from this Government, and in previous ones, have too often found that decisions they have made do not then get implemented,” he will say.

“There are cases when permanent secretaries have blocked agreed Government policy from going ahead or advised other officials not to implement ministerial decisions - that is unacceptable".

Blocking government policy by un-elected civil servants is undemocratic and nothing to do with 'keeping the state functioning'.

Politiking by new governments every 5 years causes enormous problems for the state organs due to constant reorganisations and the like.

The civil service is by design an attempt to ensure continuity.

Plus they are allowed to push back if ministers start trying to make changes contrary to LAW.


That clown Angela Leadsome claiming she'd trigger article 50 in 'september'.

Failing to remember that Royal Prerogative - does not allow UK law to be repealled.

Only Parliament can do that.

So if she was PM she couldn't do as she said.

That tells me all I need to know. She's a puppet of IDS, John Redwood and the other idealogues and is nothing but an attempt to get control of the government. Which I will go against - for one.

 

[Joey66]

Think we should have a new vote but allow 16 years old the chance to vote.

Also, people from the age 16 - 30 years vote should count as 3 votes. 31 - 45 years vote counts as 2 votes. 46 - 66 years vote counts as 1 vote while the over 67 years of age counts as 0.5 votes.

Would be a fairer system, it's the younger generation suffering from the older generation of bigots.

Can we replay our game v Iceland? With a younger more knowledgable Manager?

 

[peteblue]

You have very little idea of what you are going on about.

Business is still digesting what is going on.

The moves that the chancellor has outlined today is designed to head off multinationals taking flight elsewhere in the EU.

Its also a posturing to ensure the UK is better positioned prior to any negotiations (and against now hostile parties in EU organisations e.g. Juncker). However, the costs (deficit reduction plan pushed further back) has already been indicated as costing this countries billions.


Companies don't make major investment decisions in 10 day timescales. Many will be looking to see what is outlined in the medium term. 6 monts to 3 years. Before making decisions.

Don't try and make points when frankly - there is none.

I have forgotten more about business than you will ever know. Do not lecture me on the working of companies, either large or small, because I have been there at the most senior levels. I understand the objectives, strategies and 5 year plans and all the boardroom thoughts. I have been a Director within some of the UK's largest companies ,the MD of International enterprise companies and the CEO of an American company.

Anyway, you said that by now you would be in Ireland......I assume your investment decisions are taking longer than you thought.......

 

[Old Blue 2]

Ah, I get it. As long as it's 'our' un-elected civil servants that run the country then that's alright. UK parliamentary democracy works a treat.

You don't know how the Civil Service works.

The remit of the majority of civil servants (in the lowest five grades [AA to Grade 7]) implement the policy decisions as enacted by Parliament. They can feed in to how things are actually implemented on the 'front line'.

Those high civil servants (the Sir Humphreys in 'Yes Minister' and 'Yes Prime Minister') advise their bosses on the upward feedback of implementation, the pitfalls, the obstacles (for example, can the current computer network sustain all the changes upon implementation and going forward), and a whole host of other things. An excellent case in point was when Job Seekers' Allowance was in the throes of being implemented. Alistair Darling wanted it in by a certain date. The computer techies, the Trainers, and the front-line staff, said if you stick to this date, the whole computer system will crash and you will be back to a paper-based system, the training of the number of staff required cannot be carried out on time given the staffing levels allocated to training, the physical infrastructure cannot be in place on time, and so on. At first, Darling was stubborn, but eventually had to give in to those in the know, as advised by his senior civil servants. I know this as one who was in a Management grade in the DSS at the time, and we all saw the potential train-wreck, fortunately avoided. Hardly got into the news...

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

Think we should have a new vote but allow 16 years old the chance to vote.

Also, people from the age 16 - 30 years vote should count as 3 votes. 31 - 45 years vote counts as 2 votes. 46 - 66 years vote counts as 1 vote while the over 67 years of age counts as 0.5 votes.

Would be a fairer system, it's the younger generation suffering from the older generation of bigots.

What difference would it of made exactly? You just need to look at the voting figures for the 18-24 age group and you can see it would be a waste. People keep saying the young voted 'overwhelmingly' to remain but they obviously didn't. They overwhelmingly chose not to bother at all, 64% of them to be exact. Those who didn't vote and haven't complained then that's fine, nobody can make you vote after all, but the morons (and I'm sorry but that's what they are) who choose for whatever reason not to vote but then complained about the results have no right to complain about anything. If the younger generation (and I feel really old saying that!) want to blame anyone, it should be their peers who didn't bother. They should consider it a very harsh lesson in life, if you don't vote you might lose out.

 

[hullefc]

Politiking by new governments every 5 years causes enormous problems for the state organs due to constant reorganisations and the like.

The civil service is by design an attempt to ensure continuity.

Plus they are allowed to push back if ministers start trying to make changes contrary to LAW.


That clown Angela Leadsome claiming she'd trigger article 50 in 'september'.

Failing to remember that Royal Prerogative - does not allow UK law to be repealled.

Only Parliament can do that.

So if she was PM she couldn't do as she said.

That tells me all I need to know. She's a puppet of IDS, John Redwood and the other idealogues and is nothing but an attempt to get control of the government. Which I will go against - for one.

Oh dear. Continuity of the things they believe in, despite who the public voted in with a particular manifesto. The civil service acts as an un-elected government.

 

[Joey66]

I have forgotten more about business than you will ever know. Do not lecture me on the working of companies, either large or small, because I have been there at the most senior levels. I understand the objectives, strategies and 5 year plans and all the boardroom thoughts. I have been a Director within some of the UK's largest companies ,the MD of International enterprise companies and the CEO of an American company.

Anyway, you said that by now you would be in Ireland......I assume your investment decisions are taking longer than you thought.......

I tell you what if the result had been split the the other way for the remoaners perhaps UKIP may have kicked up - DC would have just carried on as a majority in a referendum is the sovereignty of the people the scare tactics need to stop we will get a deal, and will be open to trade all over the World IMO the right descision, DC shoul have had a plan for Brexit IMO!
People forget he set up top civil servants to look into a out of EU scenario 12 months ago it was split so he asked the chairman to veto the findings!
If you watch him at PM questions last week he even stated he would have to reopen the reports which were positive for leaving!

 

[Old Blue 2]

Fair enough. Lets just crack on and see how it all works out then.

And if the sunny post EU uplands aint quite as sunny as you think they will be, sure you will be ok with that fully informed electorate that started the car.

roydo,
I don't know how old you are, so I cannot comment on your life experience. But I lived through the Thatcher years, when the ordinary people in this country were put through the mill good-style. Over 3 million unemployed, interest rates at 15%! Thatcher and Howe's deliberations on managing Liverpool into decline... Me and my family came through that crap in Liverpool at the time. Through the mid-2000s (as I'm sure most on here did) when the financial speculators caused mayhem with world economies and heralded in a major recession.

So the dripping sarcasm of your second paragraph doesn't wash with me for a second, as I'm sure it doesn't with many others. We've been lurching from crisis to crisis for decades as a result of the high strata of society making a complete balls of things. Pulling out of the EU is no different - as Hank WIlliams III sings at the end of a song: 'Might even be better off'!

 

[peteblue]

Think we should have a new vote but allow 16 years old the chance to vote.

Also, people from the age 16 - 30 years vote should count as 3 votes. 31 - 45 years vote counts as 2 votes. 46 - 66 years vote counts as 1 vote while the over 67 years of age counts as 0.5 votes.

Would be a fairer system, it's the younger generation suffering from the older generation of bigots.

Strangely enough, even though it was reported that 75% of 18-24 years old voted to remain, it has just been reported that only 36% of that age group actually bothered to vote, so only 27% actually voted to remain.............

 

[bizzaro]

I have forgotten more about business than you will ever know. Do not lecture me on the working of companies, either large or small, because I have been there at the most senior levels. I understand the objectives, strategies and 5 year plans and all the boardroom thoughts. I have been a Director within some of the UK's largest companies ,the MD of International enterprise companies and the CEO of an American company.

Anyway, you said that by now you would be in Ireland......I assume your investment decisions are taking longer than you thought.......

You coming on here just over a week since last week's referendum - claiming 'all is well' - is all anyone needs to know about what you know about business.

Nothing.

You cannot claim that all is well - given that investment in the UK is being withheld and companies are leaving, the BoE and the government are having to take emergency action. In response. That means spending tax payers money.

You can claim to be anything you want. But spouting nonsense about the UK being 'ok' isn't just premature. Its downright irresponsible.

Much like your people's claims of '£350 million per week to the NHS'

Writing cheques you cannot cash!


I'm a venture capital investor in multiple companies. I'm moving companies to the republic of ireland as a direct consequence of last week. I speak with the directors of multinationals on a daily basis. I know whats going on in the economy more than you do.