Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Old Blue 2]

Bottled it. BoJo and Farage, have ran off scared.

Not at all. Do you not understand...?

Boris Johnson stepped down as a candidate for leader of the Conservative Party, as he believed he had no chance of winning the election for the new leader. I just wish some of the other no-hopers would do the same and leave it to the possibly two or three main candidates, and get the thing done quicker as a result.

Farage has achieved what he said he had set out to do over a decade ago. He believed that UKIP should now go foward into the future with a new leader.Smart move - fresh blood at the top to challenge the fresh blood at the top of the two main parties.

Neither Bojo or Farage have ran off scared. There was nothing in their remit which said they had to continue anything post-election. Quite simply, neither are in a position to be a major player in future exit negotiations as things stand presently. THAT is for the Government of the day.

And to conclude, I have never voted for, and never will, either of the two parties I have mentioned above. I am a Labour voter, always...

 

[hullefc]

Just like EU democracy is that the one you prefer?

An un-elected bureaucrat that runs the UK from Whitehall is no different than an un-elected bureaucrat that runs the EU from Brussels. They are both un-elected.

 

[Toffeelover]

An un-elected bureaucrat that runs the UK from Whitehall is no different than an un-elected bureaucrat that runs the EU from Brussels. They are both un-elected.

So you preferred the unelected EU lot - okay.

 

[peteblue]

Never said you were. And I totally understand your position. Many times I have thought the same. And like I said, I was an unenthusiastic Remain voter.

But I am of the opinion that outside of the active, engaged populace, this seismic vote has not been as welcomed as a lot who voted for it actually thought it would be. Nor did a lot actually think how it could pan out. And certainly not how it has.

It's panning out quite nicely tbh. The £ has dropped to a sensible level that will aid exports, the FTSE has regained and indeed improved on where it was, the possibility of deflation has probably been removed and the banks etc etc have declared they will remain in the UK. The chancellor has removed his further austerity or tax increasing threats and offered business a further cut in corporation tax. We regain control of our Borders, Lawmaking and now have the opportunity to increase our RoW trade as countries such as the USA, India, China, Australia etc are knocking on our door. What's not to like........Oh and Germany really, really, wants a trade deal........

 

[roydo]

An un-elected bureaucrat that runs the UK from Whitehall is no different than an un-elected bureaucrat that runs the EU from Brussels. They are both un-elected.

But one lets Nissan and Honda and JLR sell tons of cars to the EU.

The other one doesnt. Unless the other one lets him.

In a nutshell.

 

[roydo]

It's panning out quite nicely tbh. The £ has dropped to a sensible level that will aid exports, the FTSE has regained and indeed improved on where it was, the possibility of deflation has probably been removed and the banks etc etc have declared they will remain in the UK. The chancellor has removed his further austerity or tax increasing threats and offered business a further cut in corporation tax. We regain control of our Borders, Lawmaking and now have the opportunity to increase our RoW trade as countries such as the USA, India, China, Australia etc are knocking on our door. What's not to like........Oh and Germany really, really, wants a trade deal........

I really hope you are right Pete. Time will tell.

 

[bizzaro]

But one lets Nissan and Honda and JLR sell tons of cars to the EU.

The other one doesnt. Unless the other one lets him.

In a nutshell.

WTO rules will apply at the very least.

However, yes tariffs could be applied onto the UK, which the UK would recipricate. Which would hurt the German automakers as much as UK (which houses multiple multinationals particuarly in car engine manufacturing).

However, lets not get ahead of ourselves.


His point is nonsense because the Civil Service provides invaluable support to the government to carry out the mandate of the people and to keep the state functioning.

So to describe them as bureaucrats is totally OTT.

Not all EU organisations are 'bureaucrats' either.

Think theres an awful lot of characaturisation going on in this thread.


There's bad politicians that like to portray certain organisations - as bad. When they tell them no. However, when these people are talking about life and death type issues then they're not actually 'bureaucrats' are they?

Theres a number of EU organisations that actually do things that the UK government might now have to pay for. For our own version. Tax payers money.

Nothing to do with Jean Claude Juncker or his lot either.

 

[Khalekan]

Legal niceties aside, voters seem to have gone to the polls believing that the poll was to decide a certain issue, not to offer advice.

Both sides forwarded their arguments over a period of four or five months. No report / opinion poll / forecast of consequences was left unanalysed; poured over by experts and discussed on the media.

Even the people of the north and midlands had a fairly good idea of what they were voting for and its likely effects.

If there is any confusion, it is sowed by those who disagree with the result and who attempt to patronise the other side by constant references to their supposed ignorance.

For any government to ignore this vote (they may try to ameliorate exit in some way) would be suicidal politically and - as any professional politician knows - would open an argument that if a democratic vote is to be overturned, why bother voting? Why not just burn things, throw things; shoot things? If a democratic vote is regarded as subject to the will of the privileged, a hateful can of worms is opened.

In my opinion.

That would be be very much the case if there had been consensus over leaving and a big majority had voted in favour of Brexit only for parliament to ignore the wishes of the vast majority of the people.

But it was a photo finish and there is no great majority to rise up against the referendum result being binned.

And as it stands almost half the country is having its views totally ignored as Brexit struts around acting like they have a huge mandate to withdraw

My own view is that the people behind Brexit do not have a clue what to do next.

They never expected to win and are now staring into the headlights like frightened rabbits.

Johnson and Farage have already exited the stage and are leaving others to pick up the mess that negotiations to leave will be.

And of course those two gentlemen will not have to live with the likely austerity measures, on a scale not yet seen in the years since the Tories took over.

They live in a financial cocoon.....Farage ironically in a nest nicely feathered by the EU as he pocketed over a million quid in wages, expenses and pension provision as he ranted about us leaving that organisation for years.

At some stage those people whom voted Brexit in deprived areas of the North East, South Wales, Cornwall and other points will be faced with the harsh reality of what Brexit means to them.

The penny will drop and we will see a tidal wave of resentment toward the people who have brought us to this point but haven't the foggiest notion of what to do next.

Thankfully however, I am confident commonsense is going to prevail.

Already some of the country's leading constitutional lawyers and businesses have banded together and are going to challenge the validity of how binding this referendum result is in a parliamentary democracy.

They are arguing that this Article 50 cannot be invoked without a vote in parliament.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-legal-legislation-constitution-a7105181.html


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-to-stop-brexit-without-parliamentary-debate/

I would think such a vote will be held against the already dawned reality that Brexit's campaign was based on one lie after another and I am already getting a sense of regret among people I know whom voted to leave.

This is not over yet....not by a long chalk.

 

[peteblue]

I really hope you are right Pete. Time will tell.

Trust me mate, it will come good and the energy and ability of our people will make it so in that big wide world where we have always operated, while the Europeans keep looking inward and drafting ever more ridiculous laws for themselves while stumping up monies to waste on ever more grandiose schemes.........

 

[hullefc]

So you preferred the unelected EU lot - okay.

I can speak for myself. I never said I 'preferred' the EU lot. The leavers kept going on about people being un-elected and telling the UK what to do and that it was undemocratic. The un-elected UK civil servants tell ministers what they can and cannot do all the time in the UK. As the quote from Maude showed.

"By Rowena Mason, Political Correspondent

10:00PM BST 01 Oct 2012


Francis Maude, the Cabinet Office minister, will condemn the “unacceptable” behaviour of some mandarins in charge of Whitehall departments, who are refusing to carry out the orders of their ministers.

In a speech at the Institute of Government, Mr Maude is expected to confirm there are several examples of top officials who intentionally frustrate Coalition policies when they do not want them to go ahead.

“Ministers from this Government, and in previous ones, have too often found that decisions they have made do not then get implemented,” he will say.

“There are cases when permanent secretaries have blocked agreed Government policy from going ahead or advised other officials not to implement ministerial decisions - that is unacceptable. And such exceptional cases undermine the sterling work of the majority of civil servants.”

In his speech, he will say permanent secretaries must be directly accountable to ministers and meet objectives published on their department’s website. The civil servants will then be appraised in line with their objectives by ministers".

Blocking government policy by un-elected civil servants is undemocratic.

 

[bizzaro]

It's panning out quite nicely tbh. The £ has dropped to a sensible level that will aid exports, the FTSE has regained and indeed improved on where it was, the possibility of deflation has probably been removed and the banks etc etc have declared they will remain in the UK. The chancellor has removed his further austerity or tax increasing threats and offered business a further cut in corporation tax. We regain control of our Borders, Lawmaking and now have the opportunity to increase our RoW trade as countries such as the USA, India, China, Australia etc are knocking on our door. What's not to like........Oh and Germany really, really, wants a trade deal........

Told you before. Its 10 days since the referendum.

Its too early to be making claims like this.

You're being utterly ridiculous. Its 6 months from now you should be commenting. (two consecutive quarters)

The building sector is pretty much in recession and the UK overall will be lucky to escape it. Mainly due to emergency action by the BoE and the chancellor.

So I'd pipe down if I were you.

 

[Moomin]

Think we should have a new vote but allow 16 years old the chance to vote.

Also, people from the age 16 - 30 years vote should count as 3 votes. 31 - 45 years vote counts as 2 votes. 46 - 66 years vote counts as 1 vote while the over 67 years of age counts as 0.5 votes.

Would be a fairer system, it's the younger generation suffering from the older generation of bigots.

 

[Old Blue 2]

I am not calling anyone out as being ignorant nor wrong, but my day job brings me into contact with loads of all sorts of folk. And like I said, other than the enthusiasts, most are utterly mortified at the ramifications now things are playing out.

A better informed democratic vote is a better result than the the utter joke of a campaign we witnessed. From all sides.

I have spoken to a lot of people over the months also. I would hardly call any of them enthusiasts. Just ordinary people thinking the matter through, and actually discussing it with others, of both persuasions (yes, that actually did go on!). Post-election, it was then a case of, decision made, move on.

Tell me, what is 'A better informed democratic vote'? Is it Cameron's £9.5 million leaflet campaign? Is it Osborne's threat of a budget that would make us all poorer because of the swingeing cuts? Now this is the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer we are talking about here. Two out-and-out LIARS!!! The two people who were basically running the country, and were lying through their teeth to us to get 'THEIR' result. Are they not supposedly 'better informed' than any of us? They are, but by God, they never operated on a level, neutral, playing field, and never intended to.

So I'm sorry, I do not take, nor am I taken in by, for one second, this pious, moral high ground notion of 'A better informed democratic vote'. The democratic vote has been done; you will never get anything 'better informed', only opinions from talking heads on TV, from the Captains of Industry, the Baker and Economists, and the politicians. And you know what? The majority of the population saw through the bull merde and voted for what THEY thought was in the best interest of the country...

 

[1966efc]

That would be be very much the case if there had been consensus over leaving and a big majority had voted in favour of Brexit only for parliament to ignore the wishes of the vast majority of the people.

But it was a photo finish and there is no great majority to rise up against the referendum result being binned.

And as it stands almost half the country is having its views totally ignored as Brexit struts around acting like they have a huge mandate to withdraw

My own view is that the people behind Brexit do not have a clue what to do next.

They never expected to win and are now staring into the headlights like frightened rabbits.

Johnson and Farage have already exited the stage and are leaving others to pick up the mess that negotiations to leave will be.

And of course those two gentlemen will not have to live with the likely austerity measures, on a scale not yet seen in the years since the Tories took over.

They live in a financial cocoon.....Farage ironically in a nest nicely feathered by the EU as he pocketed over a million quid in wages, expenses and pension provision as he ranted about us leaving that organisation for years.

At some stage those people whom voted Brexit in deprived areas of the North East, South Wales, Cornwall and other points will be faced with the harsh reality of what Brexit means to them.

The penny will drop and we will see a tidal wave of resentment toward the people who have brought us to this point but haven't the foggiest notion of what to do next.

Thankfully however, I am confident commonsense is going to prevail.

Already some of the country's leading constitutional lawyers and businesses have banded together and are going to challenge the validity of how binding this referendum result is in a parliamentary democracy.

They are arguing that this Article 50 cannot be invoked without a vote in parliament.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-legal-legislation-constitution-a7105181.html


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...-to-stop-brexit-without-parliamentary-debate/

I would think such a vote will be held against the already dawned reality that Brexit's campaign was based on one lie after another and I am already getting a sense of regret among people I know whom voted to leave.

This is not over yet....not by a long chalk.

You'll always find a lawyer ready to argue - especially where big bucks are involved.

The size of the majority is wholly irrelevant ... no provision for "less than a million and we go again" in the act.

I know nobody who regrets their vote. Both of us are assuming something on the basis of a smallish circle of acquaintance.

This really is over. No serious politician has argued otherwise and won't because they know the dangers.

 

[bizzaro]

Trust me mate, it will come good and the energy and ability of our people will make it so in that big wide world where we have always operated, while the Europeans keep looking inward and drafting ever more ridiculous laws for themselves while stumping up monies to waste on ever more grandiose schemes.........

You have very little idea of what you are going on about.

Business is still digesting what is going on.

The moves that the chancellor has outlined today is designed to head off multinationals taking flight elsewhere in the EU.

Its also a posturing to ensure the UK is better positioned prior to any negotiations (and against now hostile parties in EU organisations e.g. Juncker). However, the costs (deficit reduction plan pushed further back) has already been indicated as costing this country billions.


Companies don't make major investment decisions in 10 day timescales. Many will be looking to see what is outlined in the medium term. 6 monts to 3 years. Before making decisions.

Don't try and make points when frankly - there is none.