Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Old Blue 2]

I don't know much about the military, although my wife was in the Navy, but surely countries have been working in conjunction and carrying out joint exercises for ages?

I just can't see national defences being replaced by one EU defence, but that's because I can't see countries in general being replaced by one big federal Europe.

To come to the conclusion that our army would be replaced by a European army, you would also have to agree that full on federalism is in the cards. So the first is just a product of the second. That doesn't take great military insight if you're a eurosceptic.

Yeah, Sean, working together and joint exercises, quite right. What he mentioned was the loss of control of our own forces by our own Commanders. The guy's been in war zones and seen it. I'm not bumming him up. I was quite taken aback by his answer. Maybe being somewhat old in the tooth means I'm a lot more questioning, wanting to dig a bit deeper, trying to extrapolate the 'Now' into the future given the 'Now's present course. As we know, there are wheels within wheels in everything, and there are a lot of things we do not see.

 

[Seanjd]

Ok mate, I'll break it down for you. The EU is the collective body of the current 28 member states. The EU itself is run by the following five institutions: The European Council, the council of the European Union, The European Parliament, the European Commission and the European Court of Justice. Our good friend Jean-Claude Junker is the current president of the commission, just as the the equally revolting Martin Schultz is the president of the European Parliament. Does that clear anything up mate?

Don't know much about Schultz. What makes you describe him as being 'revolting'?

 

[magicjuan]

But that's not the EU is it?

The EU is the member states. Each with a member of elected government of each member state on the European Council. The membership which signed the treaties of the the European Union.

That is the European Union

No the members are a collective with a governing body. The EU is the confederation body they are members of, broken into the financial, legal etc as highlighted above. It is a governing body, it governs. It legislates, sets rules, imposes penalties, enacts treaties.

 

[bring the ghost on]

The guy's been in war zones and seen it. I'm not bumming him up.

 

[bizzaro]

Yeah, Sean, working together and joint exercises, quite right. What he mentioned was the loss of control of our own forces by our own Commanders. The guy's been in war zones and seen it. I'm not bumming him up. I was quite taken aback by his answer. Maybe being somewhat old in the tooth means I'm a lot more questioning, wanting to dig a bit deeper, trying to extrapolate the 'Now' into the future given the 'Now's present course. As we know, there are wheels within wheels in everything, and there are a lot of things we do not see.

There's been multiple NATO exercises in the past three years. The largest this summer in Poland.

Absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

That's NATO related. Not EU.

 

[bring the ghost on]

I think those statistic raise big questions, such as who are the muppet 4% of UKIP supporters voting remain?

There is confused, and then there is "I support UKIP and voted Remain" confused.

 

[bizzaro]

No the members are a collective with a governing body. The EU is the confederation body they are members of, broken into the financial, legal etc as highlighted above. It is a governing body, it governs. It legislates, sets rules, imposes penalties, enacts treaties.

But that's not the EU.

That's like saying Barack Obama or the Congress is the USA. They are just elements of government.

Clearly that is not the case here. As some are trying to argue.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

Don't know much about Schultz. What makes you describe him as being 'revolting'?

His complete contempt of democracy and gross interference with nations. Just look at his interfering comments over the Greek government. He's made no secret of his dislike of ANYBODY who has the temerity to disagree with him and regularly refers to those who do as fascists. He lives the Fat cat lifestyle to the full with a staggering 35 aids, two limousines and an outrageous personal daily expenses allowance of €304!

 

[Old Blue 2]

There's been multiple NATO exercises in the past three years. The largest this summer in Poland.

Absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

That's NATO related. Not EU.

Not seeking to disput with you, biz, all I was saying was that guy is on the 'inside', and he was expressing his views on the way he saw things ultimately shaping up. He may be wrong, he may be right, I don't know.

 

[magicjuan]

But that's not the EU.

That's like saying Barack Obama or the Congress is the USA. They are just elements of government.

Clearly that is not the case here. As some are trying to argue.

If you take the EU element of governance away all you are left with is a bunch of countries. If they traded they would be in a common market. To agree to abide by external governance and to ratify treaties would mean joining 'something', that something as I pointed out is the EU. The countries belong to the EU they do not make the EU.

 

[bizzaro]

Not seeking to disput with you, biz, all I was saying was that guy is on the 'inside', and he was expressing his views on the way he saw things ultimately shaping up. He may be wrong, he may be right, I don't know.

Mate. I'm old enough to remember the cold war. Things are no different now to then except maybe smaller.

It was always thus in NATO and this has nothing to do with the EU.

The EU has only really mounted naval missions off Somalia and the med.

The rest are tiny and mainly involving French forces.

The UK may have contributed a few ships. A battalion or two to training operations. The UK has never participated in EUROFOR operations other than providing officers.

In fact what was involved primarily were similar to cold war WEU operations involving Franko-German structures.

Anything major involving would have been NATO related. So it's just nonsense.

 

[bizzaro]

If you take the EU element of governance away all you are left with is a bunch of countries. If they traded they would be in a common market. To agree to abide by external governance and to ratify treaties would mean joining 'something', that something as I pointed out is the EU. The countries belong to the EU they do not make the EU.

Mare. You will notice I'm pro EU but not federalist-EU.

Juncker is a federalist. I believe in an association of member states. This is not federalism.

The Lisbon Treaty does not establish a federal Europe. In fact the UK has explicitly rallied against this Juncker nonsense.

Which is why he has come out with this venom

 

[magicjuan]

Mare. You will notice I'm pro EU but not federalist-EU.

Juncker is a federalist. I believe in an association of member states. This is not federalism.

The Lisbon Treaty does not establish a federal Europe. In fact the UK has explicitly rallied against this Juncker nonsense.

Which is why he has come out with this venom

If you are a member of a club that is federalist but you are not, so you leave, there is still a federalist club left behind.

 

[bizzaro]

If you are a member of a club that is federalist but you are not, so you leave, there is still a federalist club left behind.

No friend. The members states dictate what goes in the treaties.

These govern and establish the European Union.

All laws come from these treaties.

None of these include the word 'federal'

Infact historically this is why European 'community' was used in terminology. The British government at the time refused to allow the word 'federal' to be allowed into the treaties.

Juncker in 1992 tried to force it (federalism) on Europe. However the UK vetoed it.

Hence... today.

 

[dandydan]

I think those statistic raise big questions, such as who are the muppet 4% of UKIP supporters voting remain?

Splitters!