Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Barnfred 55]

It's not racial profiling at all, it's saying that the government are the worst people to decide whether someone can or cannot move somewhere, and my evidence is that when the government butt out, then the outcome is actually better than whey they stick their oar in.

I'll gladly admit, with my in-laws having lived through a time where you had to ask the state's permission to even leave the country, much less work elsewhere, the freedom to live, work and enjoy your life in 28 countries around Europe without having to ask anyone's permission to do so is one of the most beautiful freedoms of the 20th century. The fact that this is also beneficial to both host and destination countries (not to mention the individuals themselves) only adds to that beauty.

This notion that the state can 'plan' the workforce is as bonkers as believing they can 'plan' the economy. That's been clearly debunked, yet this myth that someone in Whitehall can control the labour market endures.

Bruce. You have basically said that you prefer people migrating from the EU rather than outside the EU because "typically" they're better educated, work harder, have less kids, and obey the law. Of course it's profiling. What else can it be?. Apart from that, the fact that there are 27 countries in the EU, and over 150 countries in the rest of the world, it's such a massive generalisation how can you possibly expect it to be taken seriously as supporting evidence. It's an assumption that if more people from outside the EU are allowed in then they will fit those "typical" profiles.

As regards your second paragraph, I totally get that. I fully understand why you and other people voted to remain and have never ever suggested that you are wrong in doing so. Neither have I ever tried to change your view or that of any other person who voted remain.

 

[summerisle]

I bet he misses putting people in the stocks.

 

[Barnfred 55]

IS

Is that right? Where does it say that? Can you link me up mate? Cheers

Let's not lose track of where this argument started. Nobody is suggesting that any UK/Irish citizen can not come and go within the UK as they please.

Except that you won't have any control because (we are told) after Brexit you will have an open unmanned land border with the EU enabling anyone from an EU country who wishes to enter the UK to do so at will.

This is the problem with the Brexiteers' arguments and why they are shot down in this thread; they are based on contradictions, fantasies, and blatant lies.

This is the post I took exception to. I replied that this only applies to Northern Ireland if we do indeed end up with a soft border. But anybody who is not a UK or Irish citizen is supposed to present a valid passport and visa (if required) whenever entering mainland UK. This is a fact. Now it appears that our border checks may not be as thorough as they should be, which is another matter entirely, but that doesn't in any way validate the claim that "anybody from an EU country who wishes to enter the UK can do so at will"

Can I just also say that the final sentence of the post, apart from being inaccurate in this particular instance, was uncalled for, overly aggressive and argumentative. There was nothing in my post that warranted such a response and it's a big reason why so many Brexit voters are reluctant to post in here. Just saying.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Bruce. You have basically said that you prefer people migrating from the EU rather than outside the EU because "typically" they're better educated, work harder, have less kids, and obey the law. Of course it's profiling. What else can it be?. Apart from that, the fact that there are 27 countries in the EU, and over 150 countries in the rest of the world, it's such a massive generalisation how can you possibly expect it to be taken seriously as supporting evidence. It's an assumption that if more people from outside the EU are allowed in then they will fit those "typical" profiles.

As regards your second paragraph, I totally get that. I fully understand why you and other people voted to remain and have never ever suggested that you are wrong in doing so. Neither have I ever tried to change your view or that of any other person who voted remain.

Once again, I'm not suggesting that Europeans are better than those from other countries around the world. What I'm saying is that things work much better when there are open borders and people come of their own volition than when the government try and 'manage' the population. I've advocated open borders numerous times in this thread before and I'd be only too happy if the rest of the world enjoyed the same freedom as the 28 nations of the EU.

I'm not really sure how many other ways I can say it, but hopefully that makes things clearer.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Once again, I'm not suggesting that Europeans are better than those from other countries around the world. What I'm saying is that things work much better when there are open borders and people come of their own volition than when the government try and 'manage' the population. I've advocated open borders numerous times in this thread before and I'd be only too happy if the rest of the world enjoyed the same freedom as the 28 nations of the EU.

I'm not really sure how many other ways I can say it, but hopefully that makes things clearer.

That may have been what you intended to say Bruce but it certainly didn't come across that way, to me anyway. It might have been clearer if you just said I believe in open borders full stop, and not quoted any comparisons. But I understand now so all's good.

I don't particularly agree with your view but let's not go there hey.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

That may have been what you intended to say Bruce but it certainly didn't come across that way, to me anyway. It might have been clearer if you just said I believe in open borders full stop, and not quoted any comparisons. But I understand now so all's good.

I don't particularly agree with your view but let's not go there hey.

Lest we forget, the whole debate was triggered by your belief that we would be better off if the government was in a position to manage immigration according to the perceived needs of the economy. I merely pointed out that we have decent enough evidence to compare a managed approach (with rest of the world) and an un-managed approach (with the EU), so it should be fairly easy to see how both approaches perform.

I may be wrong, but instinctively I suspect very few of those who advocate for control over migration have much of a clue about these things. They won't have digested stuff like the Global Talent Competitiveness Index or other publications of that ilk that highlight the global picture. Instead it will be a guttural reaction that there are too many foreigners and by 'taking back control' the country can limit numbers. They'll talk in vague platitudes about letting the right sort in, but it implies that those around them are very much the wrong sort.

I'm not suggesting that you fall into that boat (and you have my respect for going onto the Observatory website and doing some reading - thank you for that), but several people who have posted on this thread and have advocated immigration controls very much have, and so it is frustrating when a simple "show us your working" is met with claims of elitism or sneering or whatever.

 

[Emlynsqueakyvoice]

Let's not lose track of where this argument started. Nobody is suggesting that any UK/Irish citizen can not come and go within the UK as they please.

This centres around people crossing the border from the Republic into the north of Ireland. Anyone can do that now, and if they fly from Belfast, or sail from there, they will not be challenged if they are coming to Britain as there is no border between Belfast and Liverpool. Production of a UK driving licence does not confirm citizenship status, it merely confirms your identity unless I am missing something. That was why I asked for a link. Do you have one yourself?

 

[Armaghtoffee]

Let's not lose track of where this argument started. Nobody is suggesting that any UK/Irish citizen can not come and go within the UK as they please.


This is the post I took exception to. I replied that this only applies to Northern Ireland if we do indeed end up with a soft border. But anybody who is not a UK or Irish citizen is supposed to present a valid passport and visa (if required) whenever entering mainland UK. This is a fact. Now it appears that our border checks may not be as thorough as they should be, which is another matter entirely, but that doesn't in any way validate the claim that "anybody from an EU country who wishes to enter the UK can do so at will"

Can I just also say that the final sentence of the post, apart from being inaccurate in this particular instance, was uncalled for, overly aggressive and argumentative. There was nothing in my post that warranted such a response and it's a big reason why so many Brexit voters are reluctant to post in here. Just saying.

That is exactly how it will work on the first day of Brexit though. Any individual can cross the border from Southern Ireland and then fly Belfast to Liverpool without any need to prove nationality.

I get that the requirement may be for Non British and Irish passengers to produce a passport if required but how do you enforce that without having a customs check in Liverpool? Do you just check some passengers and not others?

*Edit- you beat me to it @Emlynsqueakyvoice

 

[Emlynsqueakyvoice]

That is exactly how it will work on the first day of Brexit though. Any individual can cross the border from Southern Ireland and then fly Belfast to Liverpool without any need to prove nationality.

I get that the requirement may be for Non British and Irish passengers to produce a passport if required but how do you enforce that without having a customs check in Liverpool? Do you just check some passengers and not others?

*Edit- you beat me to it @Emlynsqueakyvoice

You said it better than me mate!

 

[Ruairi77]

been a bit out of the loop in Brexit news in recent weeks.
What vote is taking place tomorrow?
Is it parliament voting on Mays agreement again? Like the same one they voted down recently?

 

[roydo]

been a bit out of the loop in Brexit news in recent weeks.
What vote is taking place tomorrow?
Is it parliament voting on Mays agreement again? Like the same one they voted down recently?

Pretty much.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

Can I just also say that the final sentence of the post, apart from being inaccurate in this particular instance, was uncalled for, overly aggressive and argumentative. There was nothing in my post that warranted such a response and it's a big reason why so many Brexit voters are reluctant to post in here. Just saying.

lollol
Don't be so soft. If anything was overly aggressive and argumentative it was your personalised response.

Check out getting middle fingered and told to eff off by a prominent Leaver in this thread if you want an example of bad behaviour.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

lollol
Don't be so soft. If anything was overly aggressive and argumentative it was your personalised response.

Check out getting middle fingered and told to eff off by a prominent Leaver in this thread if you want an example of bad behaviour.

To be fair, @Barnfred 55 has shown a willingness to come to the table, so that's got to be respected.

 

[tim cahill]

been a bit out of the loop in Brexit news in recent weeks.
What vote is taking place tomorrow?
Is it parliament voting on Mays agreement again? Like the same one they voted down recently?

I think May’s still hoping the EU will “blink first” and realise that “we hold all the cards” or the “German car manufacturers will step in” and the EU will suddenly decide that the good Friday agreement isn’t actually a big deal after all and we’ll get a “have our cake and eat it” deal to vote on instead.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I think May’s still hoping the EU will “blink first” and realise that “we hold all the cards” or the “German car manufacturers will step in” and the EU will suddenly decide that the good Friday agreement isn’t actually a big deal after all and we’ll get a “have our cake and eat it” deal to vote on instead.

I suspect it's the ERG she hopes blinks first as the reality dawns on them that it's May's agreement or nothing. What's more, if it did go to a 2nd vote and remain won, I'd say the odds of a Tory government at the next election are minuscule.