Current Affairs EU In or Out

[peteblue]

lol This is the best you can come up with to the EU ruling out renegotiation ?

You and your Brexit fanatics are up crap creek without a paddle. It's time you faced up to that reality.

So having categorically stated that it can’t be renegotiated, you can’t actually tell me why not......sounds about right.....

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You show complete disregard on how the Labour party is now being run, it responds to it's individual members and thier thoughts. I understand that democracy in its true sense is relative new term for those used to doffing their caps and not responding to CEOs needs for shareholders and then pretending immigration is entirely separate issue, its going to be difficult, but this is Labour now, others like myself have a say now! And if EU want to facepalm that, perhaps I was wrong and we are better off out, but I doubt EU will actually see it the way you do.

The Tory Government have been at the centre of this process, the rest of your idiots in Westminster and devolved nations have begged May for more say in their matters she has up to a week or so arrogantly refused to entertain them. Only when she was handed the biggest policy defeat for a sitting PM she realised the mess she and her government and Tory party have created, and true to form the Tories try and disperse the blame, they like all the power just non of the responsibility.

I'm not sure how any of that relates to where we are right now. The Tories were voted in on a manifesto that included the referendum, they were then voted in again after the referendum, and two years passed where a deal was approved between the elected prime minister and the EU, only for it to be rejected by parliament. That is chaotic enough from the EU's perspective, so for us to then say we'll have another general election and go back to square one again is bonkers. They will rightly think we can't organise a knees up in a brewery.

I don't disagree with any of this, but there is a logic to it all the same.

The parties are divided because the people themselves are divided. Perhaps astonishingly, MPs are, even now, still by and large representing what they think their constituents want. And in that sense, the system is functioning as intended.

At least with Leave/Remain constrained within Labour and the Conservative Party, the two sides still have to talk to each other.

Whereas a more coherent partisan reflection of the Brexit divide would mean permanent civil Cold War, like in America, where neither Party even attempts to represent the enemy traitors. We should think very carefully before we deciding that's the answer to the current impasse.

In any case, Labour has made clear that although they might not deliver the Brexit that you or anybody else wants - because who could? - it will undoubtedly be a softer Brexit than what the Tories can agree upon.

And, more importantly to me if not to you, Corbyn is also the only national politician with any longer-term ideas on how to resolve the underlying cultural and political crisis, by prioritising the deeper causes of Brexit - namely austerity (centrist liberals' original 'sick of experts' sin) - rather than keeping everything else the same and patching up the effects.

I would personally be happy if politicians went after misinformation as a starting point. For a long time now politicians have ranked towards the bottom of the pile in terms of trustworthiness, which is compounded by the profession we hope will hold them to account (the press) also coming towards the bottom of the pile. It's created this culture whereby not only have politicians dishonestly blamed The Other (whether the opposition/previous government, the EU or immigrants) for their own problems, but they have also now created a culture that is clearly manifest on this forum whereby 'experts' are dismissed airily out of hand.

It has hugely damaged our method of government, and for me, I'd be only too happy if we had a period whereby we didn't have politicians promising the earth, but rather had more prosaic ambitions and they were up front with people about both the challenges and uncertainty involved in tackling them, and their progress in doing so. Alas, that seems extremely unlikely to happen, whomever is in office.

 

[bigbadjeff]

The British government come up with them time & time again. As to my solutions, it’s wellabove my pay grade

 

[bigbadjeff]

give us a link to the solutions there lad.
thanks

The government keep going to the EC with suggestions, which are rebuffed. To my knowledge the E.U. haven’t engaged in anything but say no.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The government keep going to the EC with suggestions, which are rebuffed. To my knowledge the E.U. haven’t engaged in anything but say no.

What are those suggestions? My recollection is that they were about as detailed and thought out as the Ramsgate-based ferry company.

 

[Harryflashman]

The government keep going to the EC with suggestions, which are rebuffed. To my knowledge the E.U. haven’t engaged in anything but say no.

I know everyone keeps asking mate but other than the etherial phrase ‘other arrangements’ what solution ?

 

[peteblue]

The government keep going to the EC with suggestions, which are rebuffed. To my knowledge the E.U. haven’t engaged in anything but say no.

Indeed......

 

[Harryflashman]

Indeed......

If we we’re negotiating a deal pete and I said I’ve got a solution and suggested other arrangements you’d be happy with that ?

 

[peteblue]

If we we’re negotiating a deal pete and I said I’ve got a solution and suggested other arrangements you’d be happy with that ?

I don’t think the EU would have accepted any solution to the Border issue. They needed it as both a negotiating card and as a means to creat mischief for the U.K. .......

 

[Harryflashman]

I don’t think the EU would have accepted any solution to the Border issue. They needed it as both a negotiating card and as a means to creat mischief for the U.K. .......

But you and @bigbadjeff have said we’re giving solutions , we aren’t . I get we’re trying to get a deal through but even Brady who came up with the amendment said he didn’t know what the other arrangement was . You can’t claim we’ve got a solution we haven’t Pete or if we have we’re keeping it a secret .

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I don’t think the EU would have accepted any solution to the Border issue. They needed it as both a negotiating card and as a means to creat mischief for the U.K. .......

That's not really the point though is it Pete? What are the solution/s that have been proposed and rejected? Who are the companies providing the technology? What testing has been done to prove the concept? You've been around the block in a corporate context, so you must accept that these are pretty standard steps to go through. If you don't, then you end up with the farce we see with the ferries in Ramsgate where the supplier doesn't actually own any ferries, let alone have any track record of running them. Just because our government seems happy to engage in such behaviour doesn't make it right, does it?

 

[summerisle]

Thank God for that.

 

[peteblue]

That's not really the point though is it Pete? What are the solution/s that have been proposed and rejected? Who are the companies providing the technology? What testing has been done to prove the concept? You've been around the block in a corporate context, so you must accept that these are pretty standard steps to go through. If you don't, then you end up with the farce we see with the ferries in Ramsgate where the supplier doesn't actually own any ferries, let alone have any track record of running them. Just because our government seems happy to engage in such behaviour doesn't make it right, does it?

You might even remember that about two years ago I suggested spending half a billion, or such a sum, to develop a suitable system. Time has moved on, technology is not the issue, but until someone actually describes the process to be undertaken and followed and it is accepted by both sides then nothing can actually be done. I’m pretty sure that a suitable process could be cobbled together almost overnight, utilising existing systems, guarantees and sign offs, to enable an open border, but it requires a will to do it, as opposed to just saying No. If we end up with No Deal, the EU will miraculously find an acceptable solution within a day......

 

[Harryflashman]

You might even remember that about two years ago I suggested spending half a billion, or such a sum, to develop a suitable system. Time has moved on, technology is not the issue, but until someone actually describes the process to be undertaken and followed and it is accepted by both sides then nothing can actually be done. I’m pretty sure that a suitable process could be cobbled together almost overnight, utilising existing systems, guarantees and sign offs, to enable an open border, but it requires a will to do it, as opposed to just saying No. If we end up with No Deal, the EU will miraculously find an acceptable solution within a day......

Technology is the issue if nobody seems to know what it is . Brexiteers seem adamant that exists but to my knowledge nobody seems able to identify it . If it exists why doesn’t the PM , ERG , Boris any company that makes it or anybody say yep here it is ready to go . Not just that what will this technology do , I don’t understand what it’s meant to do . It’s the very epitome of a magic bullet .

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You might even remember that about two years ago I suggested spending half a billion, or such a sum, to develop a suitable system. Time has moved on, technology is not the issue, but until someone actually describes the process to be undertaken and followed and it is accepted by both sides then nothing can actually be done. I’m pretty sure that a suitable process could be cobbled together almost overnight, utilising existing systems, guarantees and sign offs, to enable an open border, but it requires a will to do it, as opposed to just saying No. If we end up with No Deal, the EU will miraculously find an acceptable solution within a day......

Quite possibly Pete, but the fact remains that nothing has been done. The likes of InnovateUK quite regularly run competitions, and it would seem logical that they would have provided one on this issue, with a bounty at the end for whomever can solve the problem, but alas nothing has been done. Equally, very few (if any) companies have been shouting from the rooftops about how their technology could crack this nut, which you would think quite logical given the commercial value of such a contract.

That none of this has been happening, no open calls for technology, no prototypes developed, no tests conducted, not even any over enthusiastic PR person shouting about their technology, suggests to me that it's a problem without a solution at the moment. I suspect the technical knowledge of people like Mogg and Johnson is on a par with their peers in the US Congress who were shown up when 'grilling' Facebook and Google recently, and they're just shouting about a technological panacea they have no clue about, either whether it works or even exists.