Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%
  • Total voters
    1,013
Status
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Mutzo Nutzo said:
Hmmm Of a no deal is pushed through then a new budget will be required as the entire financial landscape will change.

If the govt want to run the country’s economy post no deal Brexit based on the last budget then we are well and truly screwed.

No deal won’t happen - it’s off the table now. If she does try and force it through parliament will react and there will be a general election.
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That's what we need a GE
 
RichardP said:
The entire landscape is now muddied and I wouldn't write off any outcome, including no deal.

Without getting into the specifics of in or out and just commenting on the democratic processes we have gone through to get where we are, I think it paints a pretty poor picture of all of our political class and demonstrates that they are quite happy to subvert the will of the people (ie, democracy) in order to pursue their own agenda and self interests.

This synopsis that I saw today explains it better than I can.

Quote:

I just wanted to lay out all the steps to how we ended up Leaving the EU:

In 2015, the Conservatives, UKIP and the Greens promised a referendum in their manifestos. The Conservatives won a majority in Parliament, and in terms of the popular vote, Tories + UKIP + Greens = 36.1% + 12.6% + 3.6% = 52.3% of the vote on a turnout of 66.4%.

Therefore having a referendum on the EU was backed by the voters both on a FPTP parliamentary basis, and on a popular vote basis.

Then parliament voted to hold the referendum by 544 - 53. Therefore holding the referendum was now the Will of Parliament, as well as the Will of the Voters.

Then we had the 2016 EU ref which delivered a Leave vote by 52% - 48%. The referendum turnout of 72% was higher than the turnout in any General Election for decades. The 17 million people that voted to leave the EU was a higher vote than anything in this countries history. And four million more votes than the current Theresa May government received.

Thus leaving is the Will of the People.

Then parliament voted to trigger Article 50 by 498 to 114 MPs.

Now Leaving is the Will of Parliament as well.

Then a general election was held in 2017, after a full year of remainers screaming that voters should be able to change their minds. Anti-Brexit parties like the SNP got hammered. Parties that promised to honour the referendum got 85% of the vote on a turnout of 68%.

Voters were signalling that Leaving was the Will of the People again.

Then we had the Withdrawal Act go through parliament in the summer of 2018. This was an epic battle with over 1000 amendments, all designed to shape the method of departure. An amendment to remove the leaving date got defeated. An amendment to make the customs union the default if no deal could be agreed was defeated 307 - 301 (with 42 MPs not bothering to vote).

So leaving with no deal as the default on 29th March 2019 is the Will of Parliament.

As you can see there were loads of steps where both voters and parliament were consulted over and over again.

If people wanted to stop the process, they could have done so at any time from the 2015 general election onwards.

For example if you thought having a referendum was wrong in principle, you could have argued that in that in the 2015 election. If you wanted a supermajority you should have argued that in the 2015 parliamentary act that gave permission for the referendum to be held (interestingly it was set at 50% +1 because that was what the Scottish ref was set at - so people wanting a supermajority should have made their case during the negotiations about the Scottish ref in 2012).

Then in the 2016 ref, you could have argued your case better so your side won!

Then if you still wanted to overturn it, you could have voted for a remain party in the 2017 ref. Mysteriously lots of remainers voted for arch-brexiteer Corbyn.

Finally if you wanted to shape the leaving as a Norway deal etc, remain MPs could have turned up to back their amendments in the Withdrawal Act in summer 2018. We are not going to remain in the customs union or have a Norway option because parliament explicitly voted against the amendments that contained those options.

I'm not sure what remainers are complaining about - they've been given plenty of opportunities to persuade both voters and parliament that the EU is wonderful, and failed over and over. Time to accept reality, methinks.

Unquote
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great post and spot on;)
 
Joey66 said:
Loads of money - seriously though have you ever noticed what ever party is in power - any crisis the money is always found........
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Absolutely, I’ve no doubt money can be found if required .

As I said yesterday though I make no bones about it it’s a no deal Brexit that truly concerns me , the fall out is a real worry . We’ve voted on a Brexit so that’s what’s happening but the idea we walk away and all this wto stuff thrown around like it’s nothing is something that in my opinion we shouldn’t be casual about . If the HOC restricts the government in relation to a no deal then I’d be delighted , you get what you want and hopefully we don’t fall off a cliff .
 
orchard said:
Stop chatting wham rich, you should know better x
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The numbers I quoted and the processes and events I quoted are 100% verifiable facts.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it 'wham.' Especially when it is established fact and can be checked on HoC records.

For some, it is an inconvenient truth. For many, it exposes the contempt that many in politics have for democracy. It also, rather sadly, exposes fissures amongst rank and file who appear to only respect democracy when they win. That is poor behaviour.

Let me ask you this. If the referendum had been 52/48 in favour of Remain, would we have had a 'soft' remain or would all the Remainers have declared victory and carried on as we are? I think we all know the answer to that. So could the remain camp please extend the same democratic respect and courtesy that would have been expected by, and given from, the Leave camp had it been necessary.
 
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RichardP said:
The numbers I quoted and the processes and events I quoted are 100% verifiable facts.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it 'wham.'

For some, it is an inconvenient truth. For many, it exposes the contempt that many in politics have for democracy. It also, rather sadly, exposes fissures amongst rank and file who appear to only respect democracy when they win. That is poor behaviour.
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So pull yourself together and get over it son, you lost, stiff upper lip and chocks away into a bright future in Europe.
 
RichardP said:
The numbers I quoted and the processes and events I quoted are 100% verifiable facts.

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it 'wham.'

For some, it is an inconvenient truth. For many, it exposes the contempt that many in politics have for democracy. It also, rather sadly, exposes fissures amongst rank and file who appear to only respect democracy when they win. That is poor behaviour.

Let me ask you this. If the referendum had been 52/48 in favour of Remain, would we have had a 'soft' remain or would all the Remainers have declared victory and carried on as we are? I think we all know the answer to that. So could the remain camp please extend the same democratic respect and courtesy that would have been expected by, and given from, the Leave camp had it been necessary.
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hahha ..yeah farage et al would just keep quiet and wouldnt ask for sweeping reform , press for another referendum etc etc(he even said this on result night that 'this wasnt over' or some such when he thought that he had lost
 
orchard said:
So pull yourself together and get over it son, you lost, stiff upper lip and chocks away into a bright future in Europe.
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No, actually, Leave won and we are still leaving. Remain can make the path a little rocky but they can't stop it. And the default position remains No Deal. That is fact too.

But, thank you for proving my point with your reply.

In football parlance, there is a sad tendency for Remain to play the man and not the ball. And winners don't need to do that.
 
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RichardP said:
No, actually, Leave won and we are still leaving. Remain can make the path a little rocky bit they can't stop it. And the default position remains No Deal. That is fact too.

But, thank you for proving my point with your reply.

In football parlance, you are playing the man and not the ball. And winners don't need to do that.
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Ha, precisely that, viz, playing. The article you posted doesn't deserve much more attention than that, to be absolutely frank.
 
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