Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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David Davis and Boris Johnson

Well yes they went before. I just don't get the thinking. If I was involved in a negotiation that became too much for me (which is Johnson/Davis) and feel I couldn't influence it anymore. Or if I signed agreed a deal and then resigned saying it was awful I would pretty much expect to be leaving the company (certainly if it was a deal of anywhere near the relative importance of the Brexit trade offs).

Not in a million years would I then be whoring myself out all over the internet like these have that they could have done a better job. If they really fancied the job why didn't they step up for it when the opportunity was there? It's shambolic. I can understand why people vote for them, thats their look out. I can't understand how anyone who has conducted a job at any level above minimum wage with any degree of responsibility does though. Even a cursory understanding of business shows them up to be complete un utter jokers. You don't need to be Alan Sugar to see that.
 
However you carve up the world, the U.K. is still the 5th biggest economy and will remain the EU’s largest trading partner. People will still invest here, sell cars here, and make good profits.......
I'd like to think that will be the case Pete (but I somehow doubt it) businesses need stability before they increase investment,and being a believer in democracy even though I thought Leave was the wrong option at the time Brexit needed to go ahead because that was the result of the vote.Sadly the idea that a deal could be done that would have no downside for the UK economy was totally unrealistic.The future of the citizens of the UK shouldn't have been put in the position of a gamble that "might" turn out OK.
 
I sense a lot of this. There's a lot of hot air from that ERG group. They talk a lot about what they will do, but deliver very little.

Even today all the supposed resignations they'd have, Gove Leadsom, Mourdant, they have all stayed in the cabinet. At their core they are a fairly cowardly bunch and will toe the line when the time comes. I think May knows this deep down as well. The majority of them will toe the line and sell the people out.
The chance that this could end in a General Election is what is keeping them in line,the idea that they could lose their lucrative cabinet positions terrifies them.As with all professional politicos they are just in it for the money.....Oh and a chauffeur driven limo.
 
The chance that this could end in a General Election is what is keeping them in line,the idea that they could lose their lucrative cabinet positions terrifies them.As with all professional politicos they are just in it for the money.....Oh and a chauffeur driven limo.

Really not sure that's much of a perk is it? A glorified Uber driver.
 
I suppose I have always tried to understand the Brexit fiasco with 2 different ideas. Firstly that the Conservatives ultimately represent the establishment (both political and economic) and therefore that they really don't want to push ahead with Brexit in spite of their dishonest rhetoric.

Thats not to say they don't have working class supporters, members and voters (particularly amongst older members of society). However their core interest group are the top of society. There's clearly a bit of a contradiction between the tw, and this manifests itself on Europe and throws open these contradictions. It's for the most part why most Tory MP's choose to keep Pandora's box shut.

My own view is that they never wanted it to get to this stage. I have said this before so it's not being wise after the event. David Cameron didn't think he could win the election. Even with an enormous error in polling (which I called) it only gave him a tiny, unworkable majority. His hope was to use the threat of Brexit as a stick to beat a Labour government with (possibly propped up by the SNP, so to attack Scotland alongside it to placate southern English voters). The aim was to discredit the Labour Party irreparably with the question.

He then called an early vote, because he could see UKIP were growing in support with each day it went on. He wanted to win the vote and take much of the power out of the UKIP sails. The brevet vote then went the wrong way.

They avoided having a brexiteer as PM. In essence Johnson and Gove completely bottled it and knifed in the back the one man who could have had the vision to get them out of this mess (Osbourne). They couldn't let a Brexiteer like Leadsom take the reigns so got a steady Remainer May. May's role when put in was essentially to steer the country away from Brexit, or at least towards a soft brexit.

She was too thick to understand this and went native in her role and immediately started spouting off inane catch phrases like "brevet means brevet" and "will of the people" painfully unaware that these words would only add pressure to her down the line. (I have mer activists close to May and can confirm she is known to be that thick, and these people said it when most Tories were desperately trying to paint her as somewhere between Thatcher and Boudicia).

I don't think they ever comprehended having a Labour opposition not opposing Brexit. I think for many Tory MP's (and particularly their aids, generally with an undergrad in politics or a masters at best) they could not begin to grasp the idea of a left critique of the EU. So there is some defence that they are completely flummoxed by this idea and have a dualities of blindspots-both in having an awareness of politics prior to 1979 or alternatively being able to read any bog standard political book in the Oxbridge libraries. I'd also suggest they felt Corbyn would be ousted by now and hence why they put so much effort into doing it. He really is their worst nightmare on this as he doesn't fall for any of their traps (not because he's some sort of genius, just because he's principled).

Through this whole process May has been waiting for Labour to concede it wants to overturn Brexit. That would then have allowed him to pitch her offer as the great defence of Brexit and pipe down most of the ERG. For their part, they are their to give an ideological clarity, to criticise but not undermine the Conservative Party and provide shape for a future critique of Labour (and ultimately prevent too many vote losses to Ukip). At no point where they meant to be turning on May, or their somewhat elitist ideas around political cohesion to ever become mainstream points.

What you now have is a party with no idea what to do. The ERG in spite of the rhetoric don't want to depose May. They have no plan and would bring further embarrassment to the Conservatives if they ended up in power. This can be seen by the fact that in spite of 6 months of "growing stronger" the number of rebels appears at about 40 as it always has been and that they have done the square root of zero with this opposition.

It was telling that Kuenssberg (essentially the governments mouthpiece) said something along the lines of "they (the ERG) need to be careful, as they might accidentally end up with a leadership contest here". We can only surmise from that that a leadership contest is not the desirable outcome and never has been. What is their purpose then? I would suggest to pontificate and give the impression of a group wanting to be oppositional but in actuality do very little.

And thats where we are now. A Tory party who has had it's bluff called by a semi-competent hippy. Cameron gambled on Miliband taking his problems away. The Tories gambled on Cameron being the fall guy. Cameron gambled on Osbourne being the fall guy. The Party then felt May would be the fall guy. May then wanted Labour to be the fall guy. And they are now left squarely in a terrible hole without any clear path what to do next.

While there's no doubt personal agency makes some difference (Gove is slimy, Johnson is ineffective, Davies incompetent and May useless) the underlying issues are structural for them.

As I keep saying, binning May off will not be the answer. The people who say it will be are the same people who said May would be the answer. She wasn't, they were wrong and will be wrong again.
 
I suppose I have always tried to understand the Brexit fiasco with 2 different ideas. Firstly that the Conservatives ultimately represent the establishment (both political and economic) and therefore that they really don't want to push ahead with Brexit in spite of their dishonest rhetoric.

Thats not to say they don't have working class supporters, members and voters (particularly amongst older members of society). However their core interest group are the top of society. There's clearly a bit of a contradiction between the tw, and this manifests itself on Europe and throws open these contradictions. It's for the most part why most Tory MP's choose to keep Pandora's box shut.

My own view is that they never wanted it to get to this stage. I have said this before so it's not being wise after the event. David Cameron didn't think he could win the election. Even with an enormous error in polling (which I called) it only gave him a tiny, unworkable majority. His hope was to use the threat of Brexit as a stick to beat a Labour government with (possibly propped up by the SNP, so to attack Scotland alongside it to placate southern English voters). The aim was to discredit the Labour Party irreparably with the question.

He then called an early vote, because he could see UKIP were growing in support with each day it went on. He wanted to win the vote and take much of the power out of the UKIP sails. The brevet vote then went the wrong way.

They avoided having a brexiteer as PM. In essence Johnson and Gove completely bottled it and knifed in the back the one man who could have had the vision to get them out of this mess (Osbourne). They couldn't let a Brexiteer like Leadsom take the reigns so got a steady Remainer May. May's role when put in was essentially to steer the country away from Brexit, or at least towards a soft brexit.

She was too thick to understand this and went native in her role and immediately started spouting off inane catch phrases like "brevet means brevet" and "will of the people" painfully unaware that these words would only add pressure to her down the line. (I have mer activists close to May and can confirm she is known to be that thick, and these people said it when most Tories were desperately trying to paint her as somewhere between Thatcher and Boudicia).

I don't think they ever comprehended having a Labour opposition not opposing Brexit. I think for many Tory MP's (and particularly their aids, generally with an undergrad in politics or a masters at best) they could not begin to grasp the idea of a left critique of the EU. So there is some defence that they are completely flummoxed by this idea and have a dualities of blindspots-both in having an awareness of politics prior to 1979 or alternatively being able to read any bog standard political book in the Oxbridge libraries. I'd also suggest they felt Corbyn would be ousted by now and hence why they put so much effort into doing it. He really is their worst nightmare on this as he doesn't fall for any of their traps (not because he's some sort of genius, just because he's principled).

Through this whole process May has been waiting for Labour to concede it wants to overturn Brexit. That would then have allowed him to pitch her offer as the great defence of Brexit and pipe down most of the ERG. For their part, they are their to give an ideological clarity, to criticise but not undermine the Conservative Party and provide shape for a future critique of Labour (and ultimately prevent too many vote losses to Ukip). At no point where they meant to be turning on May, or their somewhat elitist ideas around political cohesion to ever become mainstream points.

What you now have is a party with no idea what to do. The ERG in spite of the rhetoric don't want to depose May. They have no plan and would bring further embarrassment to the Conservatives if they ended up in power. This can be seen by the fact that in spite of 6 months of "growing stronger" the number of rebels appears at about 40 as it always has been and that they have done the square root of zero with this opposition.

It was telling that Kuenssberg (essentially the governments mouthpiece) said something along the lines of "they (the ERG) need to be careful, as they might accidentally end up with a leadership contest here". We can only surmise from that that a leadership contest is not the desirable outcome and never has been. What is their purpose then? I would suggest to pontificate and give the impression of a group wanting to be oppositional but in actuality do very little.

And thats where we are now. A Tory party who has had it's bluff called by a semi-competent hippy. Cameron gambled on Miliband taking his problems away. The Tories gambled on Cameron being the fall guy. Cameron gambled on Osbourne being the fall guy. The Party then felt May would be the fall guy. May then wanted Labour to be the fall guy. And they are now left squarely in a terrible hole without any clear path what to do next.

While there's no doubt personal agency makes some difference (Gove is slimy, Johnson is ineffective, Davies incompetent and May useless) the underlying issues are structural for them.

As I keep saying, binning May off will not be the answer. The people who say it will be are the same people who said May would be the answer. She wasn't, they were wrong and will be wrong again.
Interesting post,and what it really boils down to is that politicos will play power games with no interest in how it might influence the lives of the average citizen.
 
a no-confidence vote will be more about showing that the Brexit deal can't pass than defeating May

but it could be closer than you might think, because if she wins, she's locked in until late 2019 - and nobody, probably not even May herself, wants that.
Yes, but there's compromise, and caving in.......
 
I sense a lot of this. There's a lot of hot air from that ERG group. They talk a lot about what they will do, but deliver very little.

Even today all the supposed resignations they'd have, Gove Leadsom, Mourdant, they have all stayed in the cabinet. At their core they are a fairly cowardly bunch and will toe the line when the time comes. I think May knows this deep down as well. The majority of them will toe the line and sell the people out.

I’m out and about and Heard Adrian chiles on 5 say he was speaking to a friend whose was high up in the Blair administration and they thought she’d survive . The reason given was that’s it’s like a game of poker and those opposing her are bluffing her and they haven’t got the ‘nuts’ to follow it through and the more amateur and inexperienced the player the more dramatic the bluff . A longish and convoluted analogy but I think it might convey the situation .
 
I’m out and about and Heard Adrian chiles on 5 say he was speaking to a friend whose was high up in the Blair administration and they thought she’d survive . The reason given was that’s it’s like a game of poker and those opposing her are bluffing her and they haven’t got the ‘nuts’ to follow it through and the more amateur and inexperienced the player the more dramatic the bluff . A longish and convoluted analogy but I think it might convey the situation .
The idea that these idiots are playing games with peoples futures is somewhat sickening.
 
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