TraffordBlue
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That's what happens when you have the upper hand though. It's bizarre that the Brexiteers tried convincing themselves otherwise.
Doesn't excuse how pathetic she's been in handling the negotiations though.
Current Affairs EU In or Out
- Thread starter micknick
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That's what happens when you have the upper hand though. It's bizarre that the Brexiteers tried convincing themselves otherwise.
Doesn't excuse how pathetic she's been in handling the negotiations though.
I'm amazed that David Davis seems to have been able to avoid any criticism from Brexiteers. He was Brexit secretary in charge of our negotiations from the outset. He was chosen for the job because he was pro-Brexit and he failed comprehensibly to get anything like a deal that he himself would be happy with.
OnlyBlueWillDo
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She has been weak as pi$$, throughout, anything the EU did or said/threatened that was not in our interest she should have been banging on about leaving with no deal, making it clear if they want to play hardball we'll walk away, she's gone cap in hand at every turn, handing them the upper hand everytime.
The most amazing thing is that this deal has been proposed without one Irish person on the EU negotiating team
Unbelievable Jeff
Unbelievable Jeff
I think Pyle O'Shoite was involved somewhere along the way.
Here's the problem you extreme Brexiteers have though - and it's a problem you had from the start. It's that you have no viable alternative. You never have. So all May has to do is say "what's your alternative?" and you have nothing to say.
All you ever had was crashing out on WTO, which wasn't viable. Because you couldn't present one rational argument as to why Brexit was a good thing for the country, you can't counter something that is obviously a bad thing for the country.
Therein lies the irony - the Brexiteers themselves have made EU membership look better than anything else on the table. Because it always was better. All you ever had was soundbytes and misinformation. By lying about this being the 'easiest trade deal in history', 'taking back control', 'we can separate free movement from free trade' and 'we have the upperhand because of German cars' and all the other nonsense, you played a key role in this nonsense we have before us now.
Your best chance recently was supporting a second referendum on the terms, with 'No Deal' on the table, so that the country as a whole could take collective responsibility on doing something that suicidal if they wanted to. Instead, you feared scrutiny, barking from the sidelines like yapping dogs and being easy to ignore due to inherent extremism and no substance.
But it isn't just the Brexiteers at fault. The other side haven't once accepted that we could leave if the proper process was followed - instead, they wanted to frustrate Brexit altogether, pretending to be on the side of democracy when they were every bit as self-serving as the Brexiteers are; politically gambling on the opposite outcome because they were smart enough to know a 'hard Brexit' would never happen, because whilst 52% voted for Brexit, 0% voted for comparative economic ruin.
This isn't really May's fault. She had literally no choice but to do what she's done - her job is to lead a government and get this through parliament, how's she meant to do that with two diametrically opposed camps with nothing in the middle?
The fault lies with cabinet jobsworths voting to save their own skin tonight, and political extremists refusing to compromise and see a middle road, so May has had to fudge one herself. May has made only one really fatal error in my view - she should have resigned after the GE, as she no longer had the political capital to lead on this issue. She gambled and lost, and should have walked. The Tories didn't push her - they should have.
I said it in 2016 and it's true now - the non-binary referendum should have been what it was - advisory - and the representatives we send to parliament to act on our behalf should have been able to do their job and act in the best interests of their constituents, cross party, without a predetermined view of what Brexit means. If we had done that, we'd have had a semblance of a negotiating position and we could have got something less favourable than membership of the EU but not the total nonsense we now have in front of us.
But we didn't do it. C'est la vie.
Great post Tubes.
What I would add in is during the vote remain was equally to blame. I kind of hate the argument that 'OUT' spread lies. They did, but I think it was more just exaggerating home points that the majority of the voters (which ultimately it proved to be) felt were issues.
I've said it before but Remain have nobody to blame but themselves. And like you say in the bit I've highlighted, this is what p****es a lot of people off still, and it's what did then. I imagine you're referring more to politicians, but I'm also referring to the ones on their high horse, who have refused to accept anything other than what they wanted and not realised that actually, it's not the end of the effing world either way (I remember saying that the other day and got a response back about somebody worrying their wife would be unable to stay here, and for that person I am extremely glad that their wife will be able to stay and quite rightly so, just as it goes for every other EU national currently living in this country and tbh, immigration was never something that really got me about the EU issue anyway, immigration in general is fine, as long as people accept that there are issues that come with the good points, like anything else in life).
I'm aware I'm rambling on a bit, but this pompousness and self-righteousness has what has irked me the most and I don't get how sad people's lives must be that they've literally spent the last few years whinging on Twitter without actually ever using their status (and some of these are people I very much respect for what they have done in their respective fields, like David Schneider, Armando Iannucci etc) to do more than what was all an act of seemingly having to remind everyone of how RIGHT they were and how SMART they are, just like everything boils down to now in the social media age. Because actually, they weren't right. They got Brexit wrong, they misjudged it, and they just refused to accept that if something isn't in their social bubble, it actually exists. The same thing happened with Trump.
Economic ruin? I really don't know. I have absolutely no economic experience. I know that I'll be okay, given the career I've chosen, the companies I work for, the industries that those companies operate in etc. I understand that others won't be, but I can't worry about that. I don't mean it to sound selfish, but when it comes to money the first thing I think about is myself and those close to me and then from there that's when charity etc comes in, and the fact we have to have food banks (one of which I donate to every month in my area) sickens me. I understand other people are different but I'm not going to spend my life worrying about the world's issues, because there's far too many of them. We'll see what happens. I'm sure there'll be a dip, but in the end, it'll probably be alright. Things generally are, if you have the right people doing the right things (which, we haven't had, granted).
Also, please if someone is more informed than me on this, correct me, but what would calling a General Election now actually achieve?
Yes, in lala fantasy land we'll have a Labour government.
Ultimately, I reckon Labour is in a weaker place now than it was two years ago. I'm for Corbyn, (I think he has his faults, but I do like him), but ultimately his party and, most importantly, 'the man/woman on the street' - in too many places - aren't.
So other than it grinding the country to a halt for another three months, only to result in where we are now, in roundabout terms, seems pretty pointless to me.
Yes, in lala fantasy land we'll have a Labour government.
Ultimately, I reckon Labour is in a weaker place now than it was two years ago. I'm for Corbyn, (I think he has his faults, but I do like him), but ultimately his party and, most importantly, 'the man/woman on the street' - in too many places - aren't.
So other than it grinding the country to a halt for another three months, only to result in where we are now, in roundabout terms, seems pretty pointless to me.
But we couldn't just 'walk away'.
I keep having this argument with my Dad.
Look, I voted out, but No Deal wasn't good. I'm not saying this deal is good, I don't have the time or inclination to look it all through. I've seen some of the major points and some are okay, some are good (EU nationals staying, British citizens staying etc) and some seem crap (£39billion severance package, for what?, and then isn't there still something that the EU will keep enforcing their tariffs?)
I don't really understand the Irish border thing enough but from my pov it seems that it's generally okay to have something that means there'll be free movement/trade still in place).
I just want it all done with. It's been two-and-a-half years of bulls**t from all involved parties (OUT, IN, the UK gov and the EU), without anything getting done.
You could always use Google.......and be an expert like @Bruce Wayne ......
...Northern Ireland Minister resigned. Probably the first of a few.
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