me neither but I though it went along the lines that in December the UK agreed that NI should remain in the customs union and common market if an alternative solution not be reached. This plan was put in place via the democratic process.
Current Affairs EU In or Out
- Thread starter micknick
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roydo
in memoriam - 1965-2024
So was Boaty McBoat Face.
They dismissed that as a daft idea, but this daft idea is all fine and dandy apparently.
Carl O'Ancelotti
Player Valuation: £20m
It's basically an insurance policy that NI would stay in the single market and customs union if an alternate arrangement is not worked out in the trade negotiations. The main sticking point seems to be that the UK government now want it to be time limited (they didn't when they signed up to it last December), and the EU/Ireland don't as it could (and probably would) then be reneged on. And that is where we are stuck. If the UK government won't move on this there won't be a deal which is looking increasingly likely.
roydo
in memoriam - 1965-2024
So a mess, Triffic.
summerisle
The rain, it raineth every day
https://www.ft.com/content/29468d52...c1ad?kbc=6da31a37-691f-4908-896f-2829ebe2309e
Brexit is teaching Britain its true place in the world
Theresa May at an informal EU summit in Salzburg in September: the UK is not as pre-eminent as it has liked to believe.
In one sense, Boris Johnson is right. The Brexit process has indeed felt like a national humiliation. How many Brits have felt our innards shrivel at key moments of the negotiations? And I am not talking about the incidents of diplomatic bumbling, of unwarranted second world war references and Dad’s Army condescension. I am talking about the parts of this process that have gone as predicted.
Perhaps we should step back from the bloviated rhetoric.
Humiliation is too strong; a national humbling is more accurate. The philosophy of Brexit was that, freed of EU constraints, the UK would take its rightful place in the world. This is indeed what is happening, but alas that place is not as the great power of their imagination. The UK’s place in the world is hardly terrible but, as Mr Johnson learnt during his brief but undistinguished term as foreign secretary, our emissaries no longer bestride summits like Castlereagh.
For far too long British politicians, journalists and voters have enjoyed a patently distorted vision of the nation as indispensable world player. Now the nation is facing the painful truth that the UK is not as pre-eminent as it has liked to believe.
For proof, look at the negotiations over the Irish border. One need not get into the rights and wrongs to see the UK has essentially been pushed around by Ireland. The hard fact is that the power has lain with Dublin, and the UK is being forced to choose between the chaos of a no-deal Brexit or undermining the constitutional integrity of one of its four sovereign parts and signing up to a significant amount of rule-taking. This is what happens when a single country that is not America or China negotiates with a global trading bloc.
From the sequencing of the negotiations to the empty scorecard of British wins, the entire process has been a lesson in power politics. Few who saw the TV programme on America’s London embassy will forget the smirks as an US official described the British Brexit delusions: “They sort of see it as a negotiation between two equal parties.”
One should not overstate this. Britain is not Latvia. It still carries heft. It is a top 10 global economy (fifth, sixth or ninth depending on the market and your choice of methodology). It remains a military power, with a nuclear deterrent and a seat on the UN Security Council. It is the only European nation with access to US intelligence through the “five eyes” programme. Its pre-eminence as a financial centre will not immediately be dissipated by Brexit. The UK will still get its call, but after France and Germany and just before Canada. Life in the top 10 is different to life in the top three.
Much of the UK’s global clout derived from its being one of the big nations of the EU. Margaret Thatcher used that very platform to help create the single market, drive forward global trade and entrench democracy in eastern Europe. The 1970s champions of Britain’s membership were right in arguing that the alternative to pooled sovereignty was not more influence but less.
Now Britain is about to taste life as one of the loudest of the next level of voices. In this tier, maintaining influence beyond military matters, requires the painstaking unbombastic alliance-building that saw its existing political and diplomatic practitioners so derided as sell-outs by our chauvinistic MPs and media. It might, for example, mean expediting entry permits for Moldovan trade representatives so they do not delay the UK’s ambitions at the World Trade Organization.
And how will the UK’s status be reflected in its new trade deals? One has only to look at Donald Trump’s treatment of Canada to see that his negotiators will offer no special favours to the UK. Mr Trump is pro-Brexit because he wants to see a weakened EU, not to play benefactor to the UK. EU nations will be similarly cut-throat. Nor will sentimental attachments affect Commonwealth nations. Too many Brits fail to grasp that former colonies do not look back to the empire with unalloyed affection.
While this has all been understood by serious figures in government, too much of Britain’s politics, culture and its self-image have been driven by its colonial past and the national myths built up around the last war. It is why the Brexiters cling so desperately to the theory that Theresa May has betrayed Brexit. The alternative is to accept that it is their own reckless chauvinism that has reduced the UK to the role of supplicant with its former partners.
Adjusting to a reduced status will require a reality check in our media and our politics and a touch of humility. If Brexit helps the UK come to a more accurate realisation of its global significance, some good may yet come out of this wretched business. Still, it seems an expensive way to learn a lesson.
Brexit is teaching Britain its true place in the world
Theresa May at an informal EU summit in Salzburg in September: the UK is not as pre-eminent as it has liked to believe.
In one sense, Boris Johnson is right. The Brexit process has indeed felt like a national humiliation. How many Brits have felt our innards shrivel at key moments of the negotiations? And I am not talking about the incidents of diplomatic bumbling, of unwarranted second world war references and Dad’s Army condescension. I am talking about the parts of this process that have gone as predicted.
Perhaps we should step back from the bloviated rhetoric.
Humiliation is too strong; a national humbling is more accurate. The philosophy of Brexit was that, freed of EU constraints, the UK would take its rightful place in the world. This is indeed what is happening, but alas that place is not as the great power of their imagination. The UK’s place in the world is hardly terrible but, as Mr Johnson learnt during his brief but undistinguished term as foreign secretary, our emissaries no longer bestride summits like Castlereagh.
For far too long British politicians, journalists and voters have enjoyed a patently distorted vision of the nation as indispensable world player. Now the nation is facing the painful truth that the UK is not as pre-eminent as it has liked to believe.
For proof, look at the negotiations over the Irish border. One need not get into the rights and wrongs to see the UK has essentially been pushed around by Ireland. The hard fact is that the power has lain with Dublin, and the UK is being forced to choose between the chaos of a no-deal Brexit or undermining the constitutional integrity of one of its four sovereign parts and signing up to a significant amount of rule-taking. This is what happens when a single country that is not America or China negotiates with a global trading bloc.
From the sequencing of the negotiations to the empty scorecard of British wins, the entire process has been a lesson in power politics. Few who saw the TV programme on America’s London embassy will forget the smirks as an US official described the British Brexit delusions: “They sort of see it as a negotiation between two equal parties.”
One should not overstate this. Britain is not Latvia. It still carries heft. It is a top 10 global economy (fifth, sixth or ninth depending on the market and your choice of methodology). It remains a military power, with a nuclear deterrent and a seat on the UN Security Council. It is the only European nation with access to US intelligence through the “five eyes” programme. Its pre-eminence as a financial centre will not immediately be dissipated by Brexit. The UK will still get its call, but after France and Germany and just before Canada. Life in the top 10 is different to life in the top three.
Much of the UK’s global clout derived from its being one of the big nations of the EU. Margaret Thatcher used that very platform to help create the single market, drive forward global trade and entrench democracy in eastern Europe. The 1970s champions of Britain’s membership were right in arguing that the alternative to pooled sovereignty was not more influence but less.
Now Britain is about to taste life as one of the loudest of the next level of voices. In this tier, maintaining influence beyond military matters, requires the painstaking unbombastic alliance-building that saw its existing political and diplomatic practitioners so derided as sell-outs by our chauvinistic MPs and media. It might, for example, mean expediting entry permits for Moldovan trade representatives so they do not delay the UK’s ambitions at the World Trade Organization.
And how will the UK’s status be reflected in its new trade deals? One has only to look at Donald Trump’s treatment of Canada to see that his negotiators will offer no special favours to the UK. Mr Trump is pro-Brexit because he wants to see a weakened EU, not to play benefactor to the UK. EU nations will be similarly cut-throat. Nor will sentimental attachments affect Commonwealth nations. Too many Brits fail to grasp that former colonies do not look back to the empire with unalloyed affection.
While this has all been understood by serious figures in government, too much of Britain’s politics, culture and its self-image have been driven by its colonial past and the national myths built up around the last war. It is why the Brexiters cling so desperately to the theory that Theresa May has betrayed Brexit. The alternative is to accept that it is their own reckless chauvinism that has reduced the UK to the role of supplicant with its former partners.
Adjusting to a reduced status will require a reality check in our media and our politics and a touch of humility. If Brexit helps the UK come to a more accurate realisation of its global significance, some good may yet come out of this wretched business. Still, it seems an expensive way to learn a lesson.
https://www.ft.com/content/29468d52...c1ad?kbc=6da31a37-691f-4908-896f-2829ebe2309e
Brexit is teaching Britain its true place in the world
Theresa May at an informal EU summit in Salzburg in September: the UK is not as pre-eminent as it has liked to believe.
In one sense, Boris Johnson is right. The Brexit process has indeed felt like a national humiliation. How many Brits have felt our innards shrivel at key moments of the negotiations? And I am not talking about the incidents of diplomatic bumbling, of unwarranted second world war references and Dad’s Army condescension. I am talking about the parts of this process that have gone as predicted.
Perhaps we should step back from the bloviated rhetoric.
Humiliation is too strong; a national humbling is more accurate. The philosophy of Brexit was that, freed of EU constraints, the UK would take its rightful place in the world. This is indeed what is happening, but alas that place is not as the great power of their imagination. The UK’s place in the world is hardly terrible but, as Mr Johnson learnt during his brief but undistinguished term as foreign secretary, our emissaries no longer bestride summits like Castlereagh.
For far too long British politicians, journalists and voters have enjoyed a patently distorted vision of the nation as indispensable world player. Now the nation is facing the painful truth that the UK is not as pre-eminent as it has liked to believe.
For proof, look at the negotiations over the Irish border. One need not get into the rights and wrongs to see the UK has essentially been pushed around by Ireland. The hard fact is that the power has lain with Dublin, and the UK is being forced to choose between the chaos of a no-deal Brexit or undermining the constitutional integrity of one of its four sovereign parts and signing up to a significant amount of rule-taking. This is what happens when a single country that is not America or China negotiates with a global trading bloc.
From the sequencing of the negotiations to the empty scorecard of British wins, the entire process has been a lesson in power politics. Few who saw the TV programme on America’s London embassy will forget the smirks as an US official described the British Brexit delusions: “They sort of see it as a negotiation between two equal parties.”
One should not overstate this. Britain is not Latvia. It still carries heft. It is a top 10 global economy (fifth, sixth or ninth depending on the market and your choice of methodology). It remains a military power, with a nuclear deterrent and a seat on the UN Security Council. It is the only European nation with access to US intelligence through the “five eyes” programme. Its pre-eminence as a financial centre will not immediately be dissipated by Brexit. The UK will still get its call, but after France and Germany and just before Canada. Life in the top 10 is different to life in the top three.
Much of the UK’s global clout derived from its being one of the big nations of the EU. Margaret Thatcher used that very platform to help create the single market, drive forward global trade and entrench democracy in eastern Europe. The 1970s champions of Britain’s membership were right in arguing that the alternative to pooled sovereignty was not more influence but less.
Now Britain is about to taste life as one of the loudest of the next level of voices. In this tier, maintaining influence beyond military matters, requires the painstaking unbombastic alliance-building that saw its existing political and diplomatic practitioners so derided as sell-outs by our chauvinistic MPs and media. It might, for example, mean expediting entry permits for Moldovan trade representatives so they do not delay the UK’s ambitions at the World Trade Organization.
And how will the UK’s status be reflected in its new trade deals? One has only to look at Donald Trump’s treatment of Canada to see that his negotiators will offer no special favours to the UK. Mr Trump is pro-Brexit because he wants to see a weakened EU, not to play benefactor to the UK. EU nations will be similarly cut-throat. Nor will sentimental attachments affect Commonwealth nations. Too many Brits fail to grasp that former colonies do not look back to the empire with unalloyed affection.
While this has all been understood by serious figures in government, too much of Britain’s politics, culture and its self-image have been driven by its colonial past and the national myths built up around the last war. It is why the Brexiters cling so desperately to the theory that Theresa May has betrayed Brexit. The alternative is to accept that it is their own reckless chauvinism that has reduced the UK to the role of supplicant with its former partners.
Adjusting to a reduced status will require a reality check in our media and our politics and a touch of humility. If Brexit helps the UK come to a more accurate realisation of its global significance, some good may yet come out of this wretched business. Still, it seems an expensive way to learn a lesson.
If I'm ever asked where I'm from I always say London tbh. Britain isn't a place to be proud of at the moment.
I think the reality is that you believe in Brexit , wholeheartedly and that’s not a criticism. Whatever evidence people believe they have of potential problems or concerns they raise you simply completely believe in it whatever is said you and the others who fight your good fight in this thread share that mindset because that’s your belief . I’m a remain voter but I’m certainly not as wedded to it as leave voters seem to be and that’s possibly one of the factors why leave triumphed
The only comparison I can see really is religious belief in that evidence can be missing but it won’t sway the believer. If any of that comes across as criticism it’s certainly not my intention.
I wrote this yesterday and didn’t post and then have tried to edit it as I don’t want to seem like I’m having a go at Brexiteers, I’m not and I’ve tried not to do that in this thread and I’m not calling you fanatics just that you’re all in on Brexit . It’s like if a host of experts came out now and said we’ve looked at the Brexit deal and we think it’ll actually be great for the economy, as a remain voter I’d think “well ok that’s good news “ I really would because firstly I like to think of myself as pragmatic and ultimately I just want the best for us and secondly as I’ve said I don’t feel I’m as wedded to my position as Brexiteers. If the same happens it’s dismissed immediately by a large proportion of leavers because the vote is that important, again as I’ve said I think that’s probably a big factor as why you won .
Old Blue 2
Player Valuation: £40m
And I say Liverpool. And proud to do so...
Same
It was actually quite common to get a bit of stick back in the day ‘Scouse git’ , ‘our representative from the people’s republic of Liverpool ‘ and the usual robbing jokes. The further south the more common obviously and often in some quite formal settings.
Old Blue 2
Player Valuation: £40m
Still get it nowadays when I speak to punters between sets or at the end of a gig. I usually say: 'Oh, they're the gentle jokes. I know the really bad ones about us!' But people are fascinated with the accent, and the history (both musical & social) of the city. I also point out (quite seriously) that Liverpool is NOT top of the national crime statistics. I tell them to go check, and look for London & Leicester.
My bass player (a cockney) calls me a 'Scouse Git!', in jest. I call him a 'CANT!'. We have a great laugh together.
Old Blue 2
Player Valuation: £40m
I'm travelling up to the Holy City Friday daytime. Staying overnight at my sister's, then off to some event over the week-end... Back home Sunday. 'Er indoors doesn't mind. She'll get some peace for 3 days! 
Still get it nowadays when I speak to punters between sets or at the end of a gig. I usually say: 'Oh, they're the gentle jokes. I know the really bad ones about us!' But people are fascinated with the accent, and the history (both musical & social) of the city. I also point out (quite seriously) that Liverpool is NOT top of the national crime statistics. I tell them to go check, and look for London & Leicester.
My bass player (a cockney) calls me a 'Scouse Git!', in jest. I call him a 'CANT!'. We have a great laugh together.
Homicides per capita actually has London as 8th worst in the country, with 12.2 per million residents. Greater Manchester is top with 19.1, with Lincolnshire next with 17.5.
Basically May and Robbins panicked signed it when she and he flew out in the early hours in December last year - Michael Portillo predicted then it would come back to haunt her - hence now she is now trying to suppress it with some other idea - she is useless.......
Will the real Brexit leaders please stand up, huh?
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