Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Bruce Wayne]

that is true mate and rightly so, i only mentioned it as i've seen such many times before. 'Thinktank'-pieces often betray an obvious taste of objective bias, as in one can objectively analyse it and prove bias (which i already did). This piece is funded by the European Research Council, which has, understandably, a pro-EU bias, and if it has a pro-EU bias, it has a pro-migration bias (the arguments with Hungary tells us so much). The Council is elitist, despite a mega-budget paid for by EU taxpayers...i.e. me & you. It grants less than 10% of the type of grant given to the author of that piece. The Guardian themselves did a critical piece of the Council.

Would they have funded a study which focussed on what Germans really felt? That would've entailed an entirely different method than the one granted here and the conclusion wouldn't make for pretty reading, hence the Council would reject such a submission. Ergo...bias.

You don't know what Germans 'really' feel though, do you? You're speculating that they feel the same as you rather than as the 'elitist' publication suggests, but there's no real evidence to support that claim. Indeed, as I pointed out in my previous post, the research you dismiss says that most German people (in their sample) are less enthusiastic than was originally claimed, and less pessimistic than is latterly claimed. They largely seem to fall into @roydo box of not being especially arsed either way.

 

[dholliday]

You don't know what Germans 'really' feel though, do you? You're speculating that they feel the same as you rather than of the 'elitist' publication, but there's no real evidence to support that claim.

There's far more evidence to support what I'm saying than what that flimsy biased study is claiming. The evidence is easily accessible thanks to the web: see German-language social media & comments under news sites. Virtually all the highest-rated comments on articles on the subject since September 2015 on mainstream sites (Zeit, Welt etc) are broadly in line with my views. Plus my own experiences of knowing a wide array of German folk and knowing what they think.

And what is it you think I feel on the subject anyway? In case you're not sure, the key issues are: Islam is a potential issue in the future, increased criminality is an issue now, there should be wilful separation in public debate & policy of economic migrants & refugees.

Those 3 key concerns are a majority concern among German folk, and any serious study should reflect that. Dealing with those concerns is humane, as ignoring them leads to actual victims: humanity for refugees, for migrants & generally safety of all people within Germany should be the priority, lest we forget many victims of new-arrival violence are refugees in shelters. This violence shouldn't be classed as refugee-on-refugee violence as most perps come from non-warzone states...by separating the opportunist migrant from the genuine refugee, we better protect & support refugees.

The vast majority of German folk has and will always support protecting warzone-refugees (including myself). The vast majority also don't want issues to fester which will result in actual victims.

The insanely-infuriating thing about mainstream media & leftist commentariat is that they will interpret these humane concerns as being racist & prejudiced. And to go back to that study, anyone with these concerns are 'probably uneducated' (hence my calling out its agenda).

And as we're in the EU thread...this is why Brexit got the support it did. People are wise to what's happening and vote accordingly (see also rise of rightwing/protest parties who do actually share these concerns, or at least pretend to to gain votes).

 

[Bruce Wayne]

There's far more evidence to support what I'm saying than what that flimsy biased study is claiming. The evidence is easily accessible thanks to the web: see German-language social media & comments under news sites. Virtually all the highest-rated comments on articles on the subject since September 2015 on mainstream sites (Zeit, Welt etc) are broadly in line with my views. Plus my own experiences of knowing a wide array of German folk and knowing what they think.

And what is it you think I feel on the subject anyway? In case you're not sure, the key issues are: Islam is a potential issue in the future, increased criminality is an issue now, there should be wilful separation in public debate & policy of economic migrants & refugees.

Those 3 key concerns are a majority concern among German folk, and any serious study should reflect that. Dealing with those concerns is humane, as ignoring them leads to actual victims: humanity for refugees, for migrants & generally safety of all people within Germany should be the priority, lest we forget many victims of new-arrival violence are refugees in shelters. This violence shouldn't be classed as refugee-on-refugee violence as most perps come from non-warzone states...by separating the opportunist migrant from the genuine refugee, we better protect & support refugees.

The vast majority of German folk has and will always support protecting warzone-refugees (including myself). The vast majority also don't want issues to fester which will result in actual victims.

The insanely-infuriating thing about mainstream media & leftist commentariat is that they will interpret these humane concerns as being racist & prejudiced. And to go back to that study, anyone with these concerns are 'probably uneducated' (hence my calling out its agenda).

And as we're in the EU thread...this is why Brexit got the support it did. People are wise to what's happening and vote accordingly (see also rise of rightwing/protest parties who do actually share these concerns, or at least pretend to to gain votes).

Social media is a terrible barometer of what people really think and not in any way scientific. It's interesting though, that you seem to support the notion that Germans weren't as welcoming as was originally suggested, but you reject the notion that they aren't as dismayed/scared by what has happened as they are currently portrayed. You claim not to have a political leaning one way or another, but that very distinction kinda suggests otherwise.

Re Islam, I'm inclined to think there is a huge amount of scaremongering going on. I was cycling with some people north of London last weekend and we cycled back through Mill Hill, Golders Green, that kind of area. It was Sunday morning and the place was awash with Jewish folk in various states of traditional dress coming back from whatever religious things Jewish folk do on a Sunday. I'm inclined to think had a similar scene involved Muslims, then there would have been frequent talk of no go zones, Sharia law governance and all sorts of twaddle.

You've done stuff in the media before, so surely you know their propensity to exaggerate in order to shift copy?

 

[dholliday]

Before I waffle on, mate...what did you think of Christopher Hitchens & Richard Dawkins and their views on Islam and its potential influence on Western society? My own thinking is pretty closely-aligned to theirs, it's nothing unusual (tho' in Hitchens case I was completely at odds with him re: Iraq, but that's another topic).

Also before...just in case you misunderstand: people are people and are all of equal worth, regardless of religion, nationality, class, race etc...the vast majority of people regardless of background are good fine people who just want to get on in life without major dramas or conflict. Specifically folk from Muslim countries bring a wealth of fine rich culture to Western lands: food, musik, dress, traditions, kindness, selflessness and more. I personally have a lot of experience with folk who are Muslim: it's as richly varied and interesting as with any other folk.

The issue isn't people, the issue is ideology and more specifically when that ideology becomes dominant.

Social media is a terrible barometer of what people really think and not in any way scientific.

I disagree, I think it's a more accurate barometer than asking a few hundred seemingly random people.

Also, define scientific in the context of polling public opinion.

It's interesting though, that you seem to support the notion that Germans weren't as welcoming as was originally suggested, but you reject the notion that they aren't as dismayed/scared by what has happened as they are currently portrayed. You claim not to have a political leaning one way or another, but that very distinction kinda suggests otherwise.

Then either you misunderstand, or I'm not explaining clearly enough.

Probably the most effective guide as to where a person leans politically is to ask him who he votes/supports/likes. In my case for Germany: Schröders SPD, these days FDP. UK it was the LibDems, now it's Corbyn's Labour. For US I was hoping Sanders would get the nomination and win the thing. If I have to choose a Left or Right as to where I lean politically...well, it's obvious where I lean. But I do understand the other sides, because I seek to understand them...it's interesting and I learn new insights.

That I think individually about things without recourse to where such things lie on contemporary Lefty/Righty barometers is no indication where I might ultimately politically lean. As @PhilM and @Prevenger17 have said, separating people into Left or Right camps is simplistic and actually inaccurate for the majority of folk who are somewhere in the middle as they have thoughts that aren't bound by what they're supposed to think.

Common sense, they call it. Binding oneself to only Left or Right views isn't common sense, it's tribalism. When I attempt to explain non-Left thinking, I get bundled into the Right corner myself as if I'm a Tory (or worse).

That's what I'm doing here, Bruce...I'm explaining why AfD got so many votes, and why Brexit won. I can explain it because I understand the reasoning behind it.

What actual truth is...who knows? No one knows anything for sure.

Re Islam, I'm inclined to think there is a huge amount of scaremongering going on. I was cycling with some people north of London last weekend and we cycled back through Mill Hill, Golders Green, that kind of area. It was Sunday morning and the place was awash with Jewish folk in various states of traditional dress coming back from whatever religious things Jewish folk do on a Sunday. I'm inclined to think had a similar scene involved Muslims, then there would have been frequent talk of no go zones, Sharia law governance and all sorts of twaddle.

The issue with Islam isn't the here and now, it's the future. I've mentioned it a few times. If birth-rates continue as they are, we may see a Muslim political party being founded and voted in to government. If a future government is Muslim-majority, then we can look to current Muslim-majority nations and ask ourselves if we want that kind of social cultural future.

It's not prejudiced or racist in the slightest to think about these things critically. Criticism of religion is as freely allowed as the practicing of it. But Islamic Terror has put the massive fear into Western folk so that criticism of it has been 'promoted' to Islamophobia and latterly even to racism. This endangers free speech, and enables actual hateful racists as it gives them a voice now missing from the mainstream (again, hence the rise of the Far Right).

 

[edge]

Social media is a terrible barometer of what people really think and not in any way scientific. It's interesting though, that you seem to support the notion that Germans weren't as welcoming as was originally suggested, but you reject the notion that they aren't as dismayed/scared by what has happened as they are currently portrayed. You claim not to have a political leaning one way or another, but that very distinction kinda suggests otherwise.

Re Islam, I'm inclined to think there is a huge amount of scaremongering going on. I was cycling with some people north of London last weekend and we cycled back through Mill Hill, Golders Green, that kind of area. It was Sunday morning and the place was awash with Jewish folk in various states of traditional dress coming back from whatever religious things Jewish folk do on a Sunday. I'm inclined to think had a similar scene involved Muslims, then there would have been frequent talk of no go zones, Sharia law governance and all sorts of twaddle.

You've done stuff in the media before, so surely you know their propensity to exaggerate in order to shift copy?

Have been through golders green and seen that, found it more interesting than anything else, did you notice the men in the traditional dress were totally separate from the woman in the streets?
Don't know what the get up to on a Sunday but the Jewish Sabbath is Saturday.
Another thing the men looked so bloody stern, are they allowed to have a laugh in public , wasn't there long so might have just seen the miserable ones.

 

[dholliday]

As @PhilM and @Prevenger17 have said, separating people into Left or Right camps is simplistic and actually inaccurate for the majority of folk who are somewhere in the middle as they have thoughts that aren't bound by what they're supposed to think.

oh and @BlueToff too, of course...mate, your contributions these last few days have added much value to the debate

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Have been through golders green and seen that, found it more interesting than anything else, did you notice the men in the traditional dress were totally separate from the woman in the streets?
Don't know what the get up to on a Sunday but the Jewish Sabbath is Saturday.
Another thing the men looked so bloody stern, are they allowed to have a laugh in public , wasn't there long so might have just seen the miserable ones.

Just different folk I guess. I was riding with three Israeli guys, who were cool, and we stopped for some hummus for lunch at another Israeli place and the bloke was utterly charming.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

separating people into Left or Right camps is simplistic and actually inaccurate for the majority of folk who are somewhere in the middle as they have thoughts that aren't bound by what they're supposed to think.

Except in the Roberto Martinez thread where that sort of thing is frowned upon.

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

Have been through golders green and seen that, found it more interesting than anything else, did you notice the men in the traditional dress were totally separate from the woman in the streets?
Don't know what the get up to on a Sunday but the Jewish Sabbath is Saturday.
Another thing the men looked so bloody stern, are they allowed to have a laugh in public , wasn't there long so might have just seen the miserable ones.

Sunday is the first day of the working week for them so there is everyday business activity as per usual.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I disagree, I think it's a more accurate barometer than asking a few hundred seemingly random people.

Also, define scientific in the context of polling public opinion.

Bit strapped for time today, but on this point, there is undoubtedly merit in social media data, and that has been proven numerous times academically. That typically requires harvesting huge quantities of it though rather than anecdotal 'reading' of what you see on Twitter or below the line. I would say any anecdote would suffer from weaknesses in that sense.

 

[Joey66]

Hi lads back in hospital results better but similar symptoms good news is just one x ray then hopefully home later - staff getting to know me..

Again fist class attentions by all
That fall did me no good.

 

[neil999]

Hi lads back in hospital results better but similar symptoms good news is just one x ray then hopefully home later - staff getting to know me..

Again fist class attentions by all
That fall did me no good.

ouch

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Hi lads back in hospital results better but similar symptoms good news is just one x ray then hopefully home later - staff getting to know me..

Again fist class attentions by all
That fall did me no good.

Falls are bad news as we get older. Take care of yourself mate.

 

[PhilM]

That I think individually about things without recourse to where such things lie on contemporary Lefty/Righty barometers is no indication where I might ultimately politically lean. As @PhilM and @Prevenger17 have said, separating people into Left or Right camps is simplistic and actually inaccurate for the majority of folk who are somewhere in the middle as they have thoughts that aren't bound by what they're supposed to think.

Common sense, they call it. Binding oneself to only Left or Right views isn't common sense, it's tribalism. When I attempt to explain non-Left thinking, I get bundled into the Right corner myself as if I'm a Tory (or worse).

It certainly is tribalism. Here in Liverpool, it is quite common for people to proudly declare that they're an active third or fourth generation Labour member.

You hear it all the time: 'my father was Labour, his father was etc. etc was so ultimately I am.' Elsewhere, I suspect you hear the same for Tory members.

Now, I deeply respect my father and listen to him for advice but politically we're not one and the same - I have my views, he has his. We both made up our minds.

When voting, I have to make a decision for whom I feel best meets my own views but I certainly wouldn't align myself to any party because of some dogma.

In fact, I see myself as a libertarian. Yet, if you mention that to those of the left, well then you're a capitalist who is profoundly against the welfare state - I'm bad.

Equally, to those of the right then I've been called a communist or an anarchist - again, I'm bad. In reality, I am a centralist with views that sometimes go either way.

With regards to leaving the EU, I was from the outset a vocal supporter of the remain party as I felt it best suited this nation economically and socially.

However, after the referendum I acknowledge the result and said let's do this as best as we can per the rules of democracy. Yet, now I'm simply tarred as right wing.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

However, after the referendum I acknowledge the result and said let's do this as best as we can per the rules of democracy. Yet, now I'm simply tarred as right wing.

This is an interesting one as I've had this discussion with the in-laws a lot. It's an unrelated analogy, but I think it's relevant, so bear with me. It was almost universal among the family that the communists were bad, but their reaction to the occupation was different. Some opposed the party openly and made no bones about their distaste for the situation. Others accepted the situation and tried to make the best of it without compromising their beliefs too much.

Instinctively I have more respect for the part who stuck to their principles, and it was perhaps these principled folk who eventually helped to bring the wall down. Many of them were utterly miserable however, with depression and alcoholism pretty high. Those who just tried to do their best seemed generally happier with things.

There's a classic Czech novel by Jiri Menzel called I Served The King of England, and it kinda revolves around the philosophy of Arthur Schopenhauer in that the world as we know it, is just how we perceive it to be. The protagonist in the book lives through both German and Soviet invasions of his country, yet often seems blithely unaware of them as he attempts to make the best of whatever life throws at him.

It seems an incredibly hard philosophy to adopt (for me at least), but I do wonder if it wouldn't make life that much happier to live.