Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Ruairi77]

Love him or hate him Brendan O'Neil actually makes some decent points about a second referendum here. I share his concerns tbh.

he makes some good points but then lets himself down when he seems to think the UK joined in 1992.

 

[Adam-GOTTV]

he makes some good points but then lets himself down when he seems to think the UK joined in 1992.

He's referencing the Maastricht Treaty mate.

 

[Tubey]

Love him or hate him Brendan O'Neil actually makes some decent points about a second referendum here. I share his concerns tbh.

Not in my eyes. The second referendum wouldn't be saying "we think you're a bunch of idiots and we're going to use the politics of fear on you" - it's simply saying you had the choice of whether you want to go; now make the choice of how you want to go and whether, after seeing all the evidence unfold over the last two years, whether it is worth doing at all.

As for damaging democracy, it was a non-binary referendum - damaging democracy would be accepting Brexit no matter the evidence as to how much it'd cause this country massive damage, because our democracy has elected representatives whose job it is to look after the best interests of this country on a daily basis.

There's no 'decent point' made in that entire video.

 

[Adam-GOTTV]

there's no 'decent point' made in that entire video.

*in your opinion.

 

[Tubey]

*in your opinion.

No as in literally. It's non-factual - for example, the referendum wasn't to 'make a serious constitutional change' - it was an advisory plebiscite to give direction, not instruction, to parliament. "We're going to backtrack on that - we're not actually going to push it through" - again, no, because it was a non-binary referendum, there was nothing to 'push through'; it wasn't legislation.

And so on. I'm not being hyperbolic - what he's saying is tired, misinformed nonsense.

 

[Ruairi77]

He's referencing the Maastricht Treaty mate.

you think?
' ...than leaving the EU which we've only been in since 1992, not as if we've been in it for ever'
Yea, Masstricht was 92 but I think youre being very generous there. Kinda like the 'football started in 1992' shout.

 

[Adam-GOTTV]

No as in literally. It's non-factual - for example, the referendum wasn't to 'make a serious constitutional change' - it was an advisory plebiscite to give direction, not instruction, to parliament. "We're going to backtrack on that - we're not actually going to push it through" - again, no, because it was a non-binary referendum, there was nothing to 'push through'; it wasn't legislation.

And so on. I'm not being hyperbolic - what he's saying is tired, misinformed nonsense.

Yeah, I get that but we're not talking legalities. This is political. It was an instruction from the people to parliament about what they wanted to do, which was to (rightly or wrongly) leave the European Union. The Government told the people that it would implement the result, O'Neill is pointing out how it will be seen if it goes back on this. That's a perfectly legitimate point to make. It'll drive more scepticism of politics and democracy than already exists, which wouldn't be a good thing.

Tbh Tubey, I'm exhausted by the whole thing and between a banking crisis, a currency crisis, a migration crisis, an institutional crisis, nationalist parties on the rise, Italy and Greece spiralling into a financial black hole and countries like Austria, Poland and Hungary literally just ignoring it now I don't see how the EU will survive another decade anyway.

 

[Adam-GOTTV]

you think?
' ...than leaving the EU which we've only been in since 1992, not as if we've been in it for ever'
Yea, Masstricht was 92 but I think youre being very generous there. Kinda like the 'football started in 1992' shout.

It'snot bud. Pre-1992 the European Union looked quite different. O'Neill is pointing out we're leaving something we've only been a part of since 1992. He's been writing about the European Union for years, so I trust he knows this. But obviously can't read his mind.

 

[The binman chronicles]

you think?
' ...than leaving the EU which we've only been in since 1992, not as if we've been in it for ever'
Yea, Masstricht was 92 but I think youre being very generous there. Kinda like the 'football started in 1992' shout.

Even if he did it kind of shoots his whole argument down seeing the growth in the uk economy since then. What have they ever done for us? *hands over several graphs all diagonally up since 1992...

 

[Tubey]

Yeah, I get that but we're not talking legalities. This is political. It was an instruction from the people to parliament about what they wanted to do, which was to (rightly or wrongly) leave the European Union. The Government told the people that it would implement the result, O'Neill is pointing out how it will be seen if it goes back on this. That's a perfectly legitimate point to make. It'll drive more scepticism of politics and democracy than already exists, which wouldn't be a good thing.

Tbh Tubey, I'm exhausted by the whole thing and between a banking crisis, a currency crisis, a migration crisis, an institutional crisis, nationalist parties on the rise, Italy and Greece spiralling into a financial black hole and countries like Austria, Poland and Hungary literally just ignoring it now I don't see how the EU will survive another decade anyway.

How does it "go back on it" mate? Seriously?

Think about it - all it's doing is asking for clarification from the electorate on a question that wasn't clear enough. It's the same electorate being asked - how is a "betrayal of democracy" by having more democracy?

It's akin to this:

"Do you want ice cream?"
"Yes."
"OK, what flavour ice cream, and are you sure you actually want ice cream?"

As opposed to this:

"Do you want ice cream?"
"Yes."
"Great, here's vanilla, eat it whether you like it or not."

 

[The binman chronicles]

I'm exhausted by the whole thing and between a banking crisis, a currency crisis, a migration crisis, an institutional crisis, nationalist parties on the rise, Italy and Greece spiralling into a financial black hole and countries like Austria, Poland and Hungary literally just ignoring it now I don't see how the EU will survive another decade anyway.

This is a fair point and the reason why I think it is silly causing ourselves severe short term pain when the whole super state experiment was doomed to fail anyhow.

 

[Adam-GOTTV]

How does it "go back on it" mate? Seriously?

Think about it - all it's doing is asking for clarification from the electorate on a question that wasn't clear enough. It's the same electorate being asked - how is a "betrayal of democracy" by having more democracy?

It's akin to this:

"Do you want ice cream?"
"Yes."
"OK, what flavour ice cream, and are you sure you actually want ice cream?"

As opposed to this:

"Do you want ice cream?"
"Yes."
"Great, here's vanilla, eat it whether you like it or not."

I take your point. I disagree but I do understand where you're coming from.

 

[Adam-GOTTV]

*plus I can't be arsed to debate anymore. Night.

 

[peteblue]

he makes some good points but then lets himself down when he seems to think the UK joined in 1992.

Let yourself down there.....

 

[peteblue]

Not in my eyes. The second referendum wouldn't be saying "we think you're a bunch of idiots and we're going to use the politics of fear on you" - it's simply saying you had the choice of whether you want to go; now make the choice of how you want to go and whether, after seeing all the evidence unfold over the last two years, whether it is worth doing at all.

As for damaging democracy, it was a non-binary referendum - damaging democracy would be accepting Brexit no matter the evidence as to how much it'd cause this country massive damage, because our democracy has elected representatives whose job it is to look after the best interests of this country on a daily basis.

There's no 'decent point' made in that entire video.

Don’t be silly Tubey. You may not agree with him, but this ‘let’s have another vote because we really didn’t like the result of the first one’.....is against the democratic process........