Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Joey66]

I typed out a long reply to joe but deleted it , so I’ll reply to you mate . I’m not arguing that a cross section of the community voted in a variety of ways , the stats I say the majority of labour voters voted remain but that doesn’t change the basic fact that certain people with a socialist ideology wanted to leave .

My point, and I’ll stand by it , was joe continually talks about the rich wanting remain , my question was would he accept that a lot of very wealthy people want Brexit and he didn’t reply . The only person , who I’ve particularly noted which could be my fault , bringing wealth repeatedly into the argument is joe who associates remain with wealth . I personally find that a bizarre juxtaposition given some of the incredibly wealthy heavy hitters who funded Brexit .

A lot of people across the spectrum want different things in this debate for different reasons however that doesn’t mean we can discount the fact that right wing nationalism has rallied around the Brexit cause . That obviously doesn’t mean everybody who voted did so for the same reasons but it does mean a lot of them are gathered around your side , that’s just a fact as far as I can see.

It's the big massive corporations, who thrive to remain for self interest - yes there are exceptions I agree on that point , but mainly the elite in British politics who still and are pursuing the referendum game....
The Polictical bubble who think the 1.4 million who defied the EU should be put in their place - that is not democratic the problem has been the government chose a leader who was a remainer......
Come October she will be gone imo........

 

[The binman chronicles]

Well in the campaign both sides told porkies what makes you think another vote the same thing would not happen let say out won again is going to be the best of three.............
The EU are well known to repel anyone who dares to go against them..........

That is just silly. You will vote with the knowledge of what will happen this time instead of a generalised statement. So whatever happens least the people have had the chance for a full and frank discussion and then a decision based on something more than propaganda on both sides. Whichever side you are on it gives the chance to validate your views, surely? We had the first one to set us down this path and another to ratify the outcome of the actual deal. There would be no need for a 3rd one as the mechanics of the deal wouldn't change thereafter.

To put it another (very dark) way If I say to you, do you want people to have perfect health? You would say yes right? Well 2 years down the line we find the consequences of that is yes everyone will have no illnesses but every third person would have to die for that. Would you still want to proceed based on your original decision? How can people vote without knowing the actual cost?

It may turn out that the deal would be perfectly workable, if so bravo to the negotiators and the leave voters, but I still think that the public should have the final say. In an ideal world I would vote to leave the EU if there were a minimal consequence deal on the table, I just don't want an at all costs brexit.

 

[The binman chronicles]

So why would you want to belong to an Eu that wants to punish a country and it’s people......

Because you would rather be inside the tent peeing out than the other way around. Hopefully the EU will come to an end by itself if the people of one of say France/Germany/Italy aided by a Greece or Portugal wanting to pull the plug. It's easy for us to go as we were always outsiders, if you get a run of countries inside the euro zone that want out then they will have no choice but to change they way it is run, reverting back to a trading union and dropping the all controlling super-state parts.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

It isn't accountability it's views. They were both anti EU for socialist reasons and it would have been difficult lumping them in with Farage et al. No different for me.

Unwise to assume they would have stayed with leaving the EU, particularly as the leave campaigns courted the far right to get them across line. And there lies the problems and the accusations of racism. The leave campaigns legitimised their views by inviting them into the fold thus gave them platform to spout their bile. Nationalistic dogs have been unleashed they are always difficult to be brought back under control.

I personally get very much what Benn and Crowe stood for, I campaigned alongside them when this could have so much easier, upto the early 00s. And Maybe they would have said to to the far right, not in our name, but as they were long dead they could not, wonder what the excuse is of others?

 

[magicjuan]

Unwise to assume they would have stayed with leaving the EU, particularly as the leave campaigns courted the far right to get them across line. And there lies the problems and the accusations of racism. The leave campaigns legitimised their views by inviting them into the fold thus gave them platform to spout their bile. Nationalistic dogs have been unleashed they are always difficult to be brought back under control.

I personally get very much what Benn and Crowe stood for, I campaigned alongside them when this could have so much easier, upto the early 00s. And Maybe they would have said to to the far right, not in our name, but as they were long dead they could not, wonder what the excuse is of others?

Neither showed the slightest change in their views, so I wouldn't consider it unwise. I've argued here and elsewhere of how the actual vote was a stitch up, as a yes/no with no qualified percentage appropriate to such a constitutionally significant change, which allowed mixed views and reason to create strange bedfellows. But, in regards to the right, they followed the lead of the media who turned both campaigns into a single issue of immigration. The british public just went along with it, it is up to them to do something about it, but they risk completely undermining the concept of democratic process in this country, that I don't mind, but the people have to be prepared for the consequences.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Neither showed the slightest change in their views, so I wouldn't consider it unwise. I've argued here and elsewhere of how the actual vote was a stitch up, as a yes/no with no qualified percentage appropriate to such a constitutionally significant change, which allowed mixed views and reason to create strange bedfellows. But, in regards to the right, they followed the lead of the media who turned both campaigns into a single issue of immigration. The british public just went along with it, it is up to them to do something about it, but they risk completely undermining the concept of democratic process in this country, that I don't mind, but the people have to be prepared for the consequences.

So far right groups are just strange bedfellows of leave. Do want some white paint and brush. Try telling that to the far right they were just strange bed fellows, they are off the leash and they want their Brexit now!

 

[Bruce Wayne]

So far right groups are just strange bedfellows of leave. Do want some white paint and brush. Try telling that to the far right they were just strange bed fellows, they are off the leash and they want their Brexit now!

You can look at the same thing in different ways though, no? On immigration, for instance, the far left can oppose immigration because they believe it lowers wages of native workers, whilst far right folk can oppose immigration because they just don't like those who are different. Personally I don't think there's any merit in either argument, but it's not that hard to see how both exist.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

You can look at the same thing in different ways though, no? On immigration, for instance, the far left can oppose immigration because they believe it lowers wages of native workers, whilst far right folk can oppose immigration because they just don't like those who are different. Personally I don't think there's any merit in either argument, but it's not that hard to see how both exist.

There is some merit in immigration and low wages, however, it was not a problem when the net effects were on lower classes, and people were getting their extensions built on the cheap from Mav the polish builder, it became problem when immigrants supposedly begun encroaching on the middle classes and thier lives and expectations, the banking crisis and subsequent austerity program are far more to blame. Still inviting far right groups into the fold was something I thought had gone with Mosley and Powell..

 

[peteblue]

Because you would rather be inside the tent peeing out than the other way around. Hopefully the EU will come to an end by itself if the people of one of say France/Germany/Italy aided by a Greece or Portugal wanting to pull the plug. It's easy for us to go as we were always outsiders, if you get a run of countries inside the euro zone that want out then they will have no choice but to change they way it is run, reverting back to a trading union and dropping the all controlling super-state parts.

And if they ever did, I’d be more than happy to rejoin.....but I wouldn’t hold my breath.....

 

[Bruce Wayne]

And if they ever did, I’d be more than happy to rejoin.....but I wouldn’t hold my breath.....

A trading relationship has all of the things associated with the EU, except the movement of people, which you won't find a single company talking badly about that. But then I thought the vote to leave wasn't about migration?

 

[The binman chronicles]

And if they ever did, I’d be more than happy to rejoin.....but I wouldn’t hold my breath.....

Wouldn't you agree though that it would be folly to take 10 years of pain on the outside if within the next 12-15 years the EU super state experiment fails on its own accord?

 

[Joey66]

Unwise to assume they would have stayed with leaving the EU, particularly as the leave campaigns courted the far right to get them across line. And there lies the problems and the accusations of racism. The leave campaigns legitimised their views by inviting them into the fold thus gave them platform to spout their bile. Nationalistic dogs have been unleashed they are always difficult to be brought back under control.

I personally get very much what Benn and Crowe stood for, I campaigned alongside them when this could have so much easier, upto the early 00s. And Maybe they would have said to to the far right, not in our name, but as they were long dead they could not, wonder what the excuse is of others?

A third of labour voters voted OUT that's one hell of a lot of far right votes to get them over the line...........

 

[Joey66]

A trading relationship has all of the things associated with the EU, except the movement of people, which you won't find a single company talking badly about that. But then I thought the vote to leave wasn't about migration?

Bruce the was a massive campaign for remaining or voting out or remaining were you asleep or on another planet?
the campaign lasted for weeks on TV social media - press etc etc debates live on TV - all aspects of Brexit were mentioned - the pro remain government under the PM DC sent out a £8 million leaflets to every UK household biased for remain stating if you dare vote out we would be out of the single market and the customs union ...
Oh and it was a massive turn out if it had been a GE it was higher than ever post war ........
Huge turnout of 72.2 per cent for EU referendum with 33.6 million voting
You and others claim people did not know what they were voting for ...... Rubbish.......

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Bruce the was a massive campaign for remaining or voting out or remaining were you asleep or on another planet?
the campaign lasted for weeks on TV social media - press etc etc debates live on TV - all aspects of Brexit were mentioned - the pro remain government under the PM DC sent out a £8 million leaflets to every UK household biased for remain stating if you dare vote out we would be out of the single market and the customs union ...
Oh and it was a massive turn out if it had been a GE it was higher than ever post war ........
Huge turnout of 72.2 per cent for EU referendum with 33.6 million voting
You and others claim people did not know what they were voting for ...... Rubbish.......

I think this thread has been a good insight into the level of ignorance to be honest Joe.

 

[peteblue]

Wouldn't you agree though that it would be folly to take 10 years of pain on the outside if within the next 12-15 years the EU super state experiment fails on its own accord?

It won’t though, that’s the problem. We keep hearing about ‘fixing it from inside’ but after 40 years the path and direction hasn’t changed, the answer to every issue is ‘more europe’. The U.K. needs to break away and if it helps to change the EU back into what we originally joined I will be overjoyed........