Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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Completely agree.

Apart from a minority of comfortable gin-soaked shire Tories who see Brexit as the fruition of their tin-soldiers-in-the-celler Churchill cosplay fantasies, Brexit was a semi-conscious reaction against austerity. "Take Back Control" - nothing could have been better crafted to resonate with the people you describe above.

There were two recessions really - the first, shorter term one, caused by the financial meltdown; and the second, far more prolonged, devastating, and vicious one, cynically imposed by the Tories (and to some extent Lib Dems), based on pretext of the first.

Unlike the United States, Canada, China, Japan, Australia et al, which (at least on paper) have recovered nicely after the obvious appropriate response of fiscal and monetary stimulus, the Eurozone and especially Britain defied all economic wisdom and the experience of the previous Great Depression by cutting the legs out from under their economies at the moment of greatest weakness. The results speak for the themselves.

Brexit was the inevitable but predictably unanticipated backlash against an especially callous and venal ruling class (and its useful idiots, self-proclaimed "Centrist" Panglossian technocratic liberals), which, with all the deranged confidence that British public schooling uniquely instills, assumed that destroying entire generations through half-baked debating society positions like Universal Credit in order to lower its own tax rates would be all just a bit of a lark, and that somebody else would be made to bear responsibility, or suffer consequences.

I don't doubt the impact of the recession on forging the mindset we have today, but surely the response to it rests on the ease with which you (both the individual and the government) can blame AN Other. In Japan and China, immigration is very low, so that's off the table. Canada and Australia have huge natural resource based economies that have enabled them to weather the recession (indeed, I don't think Australia even had a recession did they?). The United States has immigration with a more diversified economy so are in a similar position to us.

As it is in Europe, as the chart below shows, government spending as a proportion of GDP has been falling in recent years, but is still above pre-recession levels, so the idea that there has been mass austerity, governments cut to the bone and so on isn't really supported by the facts.

european-union-government-spending-to-gdp.png


I posted a few weeks ago about our propensity to believe problems still exist, even when they've been largely solved, and I do wonder if that isn't the case in the reaction of some to the aftermath of the recession. I've no doubt there has been hardship and difficulties for many, but whether you compare the hardship seen in Britain with hardships both in many other places in the world and that Britain itself has endured in the past century, then I do wonder if a bit of perspective is needed. I mean the world adapted to this recession infinitely better than it did the Depression.
 
Fair play to Justine Greening.
A referendum cannot have three options......
Only two as the vote will have a three way split hence back to square one also she's on tape on radio filmed saying the white paper was fine an opportunity to get back at her leader who has just sacked her!
 
It's hard to say this without sounding arrogant, but the British public don't really have a clue about the things they're voting on. I don't mean that in a dismissive way, but it's a fact nonetheless. You have people who devote their entire lives to understanding particular fields, and their vote is as important as someone who devotes a few minutes listening to LBC every week. There have been so many studies showing the cluelessness of people, whether on crime stats, immigration numbers, religion etc. and yet we're in this bizarre situation of having the 'will of the ignorant people' put onto a pedestal as some kind of perfection. It's bewildering.
That is arrogant Bruce how do you define democracy vote until you get the result you want?.......
 
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">I&#39;m withdrawing my support for Brexit. Did not sufficiently account for: the incompetence of UK politics; the madness of Brexiteers; the deep aversion to EEA; NI; Customs; and of course Trump. <br>Not switching to Remain but if we do now remain I&#39;ll shrug. /1</p>&mdash; Roland Smith (@rolandmcs) <a href="">July 16, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 
A referendum cannot have three options......
Only two as the vote will have a three way split hence back to square one also she's on tape on radio filmed saying the white paper was fine an opportunity to get back at her leader who has just sacked her!

Again Joey, referendums are non-binary and parliament is sovereign. It doesn't matter what the result is in many ways as it's supposed to be taken as an indicator.

The issue we have is parliament has absolutely no clue what it's doing because it's treating the referendum as legally binding, with the referendum itself being too vague to give clear direction. So the second referendum simply clears it up and gives us a state of play in 2018.

If a second referendum came back and it was 80% remain, then parliament can still in effect ignore that if they feel they have a better solution - because a referendum doesn't overrule parliamentary sovereignty.

This is what people aren't getting on this and never have. The referendum - indeed, any referendum - isn't meant to be taken as gospel. So if there's a three way split, that simply gives parliament the guidance that the nation is as split as the HoC is, and therefore they should just act according to their conscience, as they have been elected to do.
 
Again Joey, referendums are non-binary and parliament is sovereign. It doesn't matter what the result is in many ways as it's supposed to be taken as an indicator.

The issue we have is parliament has absolutely no clue what it's doing because it's treating the referendum as legally binding, with the referendum itself being too vague to give clear direction. So the second referendum simply clears it up and gives us a state of play in 2018.

If a second referendum came back and it was 80% remain, then parliament can still in effect ignore that if they feel they have a better solution - because a referendum doesn't overrule parliamentary sovereignty.

This is what people aren't getting on this and never have. The referendum - indeed, any referendum - isn't meant to be taken as gospel. So if there's a three way split, that simply gives parliament the guidance that the nation is as split as the HoC is, and therefore they should just act according to their conscience, as they have been elected to do.

I wonder if there's time for a referendum tbh. We have 256 until we have to leave and whilst we may have a (very) broad outline of what 'we' want Brexit to be, there isn't anything close to an agreed upon proposition that both UK government and EU are happy with. Without that there's nothing really to put onto a ballot paper. Can we agree all of that and then have enough time to run a referendum in 256 days? Especially when presumably we would have to agree with the EU just what happens should the vote be either a hard Brexit or no Brexit (ie anything that hadn't already been agreed)
 
I wonder if there's time for a referendum tbh. We have 256 until we have to leave and whilst we may have a (very) broad outline of what 'we' want Brexit to be, there isn't anything close to an agreed upon proposition that both UK government and EU are happy with. Without that there's nothing really to put onto a ballot paper. Can we agree all of that and then have enough time to run a referendum in 256 days? Especially when presumably we would have to agree with the EU just what happens should the vote be either a hard Brexit or no Brexit (ie anything that hadn't already been agreed)

No, there isn't. But I'm assuming if one were to occur then we simply do what we should have done in the first place - delay activating Article 50. We can revoke it at any time; we're still a member of the EU, there's absolutely no legal reason for us to not take it back and activate it again at a later date.

It's yet another example of the referendum being held to the same standards as parliamentary sovereignty - the fact Article 50 was triggered in a blind panic to appease the Brexiteer mob without a second thought given to whether we should trigger it. It was one of the only areas of power we held over the whole process and we threw it away because of sheer incompetence.
 
Sure you would agree that democracy works better if the electorate are informed on the matters they are voting on.
Bruce both sides had a months campain are you saying if a polictical party gets in on a fixed term Parliment the side that lost can demand a new GE ???
The EU have a history or reversing referendum results as they have set the terms of negotiations in their favour from day one......
 
Again Joey, referendums are non-binary and parliament is sovereign. It doesn't matter what the result is in many ways as it's supposed to be taken as an indicator.

The issue we have is parliament has absolutely no clue what it's doing because it's treating the referendum as legally binding, with the referendum itself being too vague to give clear direction. So the second referendum simply clears it up and gives us a state of play in 2018.

If a second referendum came back and it was 80% remain, then parliament can still in effect ignore that if they feel they have a better solution - because a referendum doesn't overrule parliamentary sovereignty.

This is what people aren't getting on this and never have. The referendum - indeed, any referendum - isn't meant to be taken as gospel. So if there's a three way split, that simply gives parliament the guidance that the nation is as split as the HoC is, and therefore they should just act according to their conscience, as they have been elected to do.
Inmaterial now the brexiteers will win all the amendments in today's votes - May has again kicked the can down the road!
 
No, there isn't. But I'm assuming if one were to occur then we simply do what we should have done in the first place - delay activating Article 50. We can revoke it at any time; we're still a member of the EU, there's absolutely no legal reason for us to not take it back and activate it again at a later date.

It's yet another example of the referendum being held to the same standards as parliamentary sovereignty - the fact Article 50 was triggered in a blind panic to appease the Brexiteer mob without a second thought given to whether we should trigger it. It was one of the only areas of power we held over the whole process and we threw it away because of sheer incompetence.

I'm not sure of the legal situation now it's been triggered tbh.

Bruce both sides had a months campain are you saying if a polictical party gets in on a fixed term Parliment the side that lost can demand a new GE ???
The EU have a history or reversing referendum results as they have set the terms of negotiations in their favour from day one......

I'm not demanding anything Joe. I'm saying the vast majority of the electorate are clueless about the EU, which is perhaps not a good basis for having a vote on it. The campaigns did nothing to further inform people about it as it was either lacklustre on one side, or bollocks on the other.
 
I'm not sure of the legal situation now it's been triggered tbh.



I'm not demanding anything Joe. I'm saying the vast majority of the electorate are clueless about the EU, which is perhaps not a good basis for having a vote on it. The campaigns did nothing to further inform people about it as it was either lacklustre on one side, or bollocks on the other.
We had one Remain lost by 1.4 million votes.....
 
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