Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Eggs]

It's a bit of a misnomer anyway Eggs. I speak a lot through my work with entrepreneurs, innovators, the academics that try and study them and the policy makers that try and support them, and a couple of things are hugely important. Firstly the cross-fertilization of ideas and knowledge that comes when you can travel freely and widely. Secondly, the ability to attract the talent you want with no strings attached. Thirdly, the ability to have a large domestic market to take a product or service to scale relatively easily. The UK doesn't offer that kind of market (not in the sense of creating a Facebook or Alibaba), but the EU does. The single market removes many of the structural barriers to doing trade with 300 million people rather than 60 million, but even then there are still cultural and practical reasons why this is difficult. Lastly, they need good access to finance and a legal framework to build their business and protect their IP (this will largely be unaffected either way).

So the idea that you would make trade with our nearest neighbours harder in favour of supposedly easier trade with people far away is fundamental against what startups and entrepreneurs need, yet they are also the 'engines of creation' on which a growing economy is built, and on what any post-Brexit dreams are surely built? At what point do Brexiters actually listen to the businesses that they are supposedly opening up trade for?

..absolutely, but the problem British political parties have is that the electorate broadly seek strict immigration controls. It’s a matter of at least giving the impression that this is what they strive for.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

It's a bit of a misnomer anyway Eggs. I speak a lot through my work with entrepreneurs, innovators, the academics that try and study them and the policy makers that try and support them, and a couple of things are hugely important. Firstly the cross-fertilization of ideas and knowledge that comes when you can travel freely and widely. Secondly, the ability to attract the talent you want with no strings attached. Thirdly, the ability to have a large domestic market to take a product or service to scale relatively easily. The UK doesn't offer that kind of market (not in the sense of creating a Facebook or Alibaba), but the EU does. The single market removes many of the structural barriers to doing trade with 300 million people rather than 60 million, but even then there are still cultural and practical reasons why this is difficult. Lastly, they need good access to finance and a legal framework to build their business and protect their IP (this will largely be unaffected either way).

So the idea that you would make trade with our nearest neighbours harder in favour of supposedly easier trade with people far away is fundamental against what startups and entrepreneurs need, yet they are also the 'engines of creation' on which a growing economy is built, and on what any post-Brexit dreams are surely built? At what point do Brexiters actually listen to the businesses that they are supposedly opening up trade for?

They claim to be the ‘party of business’ and yet their Brextremists shout down the views of the 80% of the CBI, with some whataboutery around the fact that the CBI themselves carry out some surveys for the EC, which of course completely invalidates the views of 80% of their actual membership.

Ignore the automotive industry and manufacturing in general, they’re all foreign owned EU patsies trying to undermine the ‘will of the people’ with their poxy facts and analysis around the impact of Brexit on their supply chains.

They should all ‘man up’ and ‘believe’ in the brave new World of Brexit. Then you’ve got Johnson who summed it up perfectly when he completely dismiss the views of numerous large U.K. based employers with a simple ‘f*** business’

That’s it in a nutshell, business can’t get in the way of the ideology of Brexit, even though it’s supposed to ultimately be for their benefit. That’s how utterly ludicrous this entire debacle has become.

 

[Tubey]

Fair play to Justine Greening.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

..absolutely, but the problem British political parties have is that the electorate broadly seek strict immigration controls. It’s a matter of at least giving the impression that this is what they strive for.

It's hard to say this without sounding arrogant, but the British public don't really have a clue about the things they're voting on. I don't mean that in a dismissive way, but it's a fact nonetheless. You have people who devote their entire lives to understanding particular fields, and their vote is as important as someone who devotes a few minutes listening to LBC every week. There have been so many studies showing the cluelessness of people, whether on crime stats, immigration numbers, religion etc. and yet we're in this bizarre situation of having the 'will of the ignorant people' put onto a pedestal as some kind of perfection. It's bewildering.

 

[Joey66]

...they say being in the single market and customs union means Britain will not be able to do its own trade deals. They also say it necessitates free movement but;

- I don’t understand why Britain would negotiate better trade deals than the EU. Indeed, surely there’s a chance our trade deals with the rest of the world will be worst than those the EU have.

- Britain’s record with managing non-EU immigration is poor. That won’t change with Brexit and it doesn’t suggest the country will handle EU immigration very well.

The EU put tariffs on us and make money out of some of our overseas deals, hence the need to take back control for gree

...they say being in the single market and customs union means Britain will not be able to do its own trade deals. They also say it necessitates free movement but;

- I don’t understand why Britain would negotiate better trade deals than the EU. Indeed, surely there’s a chance our trade deals with the rest of the world will be worst than those the EU have.

- Britain’s record with managing non-EU immigration is poor. That won’t change with Brexit and it doesn’t suggest the country will handle EU immigration very well.

Tarrifs are set by the EU on our behalf hence the phrase wanting independence......
Deals are also slowed down with the EU berocratic system they fined JCB for jumping in with a deal outside the EU ....
Dress it up all you want the EU is a syndicate that governs us on trade deals in specifications and price......
Globalisation is what they control !
When we leave we can do deals on our terms but not that well in Mays white paper as we will still be a rule taker not a rule maker.....

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Surely we are at least heading towards another referendum, and we are now at the point where we should have been holding first referendum with information in hand and what leaving the EU actually means!

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

They all knew what they were voting for, Brexit meant Brexit.........Oh.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The EU put tariffs on us and make money out of some of our overseas deals, hence the need to take back control for gree


Tarrifs are set by the EU on our behalf hence the phrase wanting independence......
Deals are also slowed down with the EU berocratic system they fined JCB for jumping in with a deal outside the EU ....
Dress it up all you want the EU is a syndicate that governs us on trade deals in specifications and price......
Globalisation is what they control !
When we leave we can do deals on our terms but not that well in Mays white paper as we will still be a rule taker not a rule maker.....

Maybe read the ruling Joe - http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-00-1526_en.htm?locale=en - it wasn't anything to do with them doing a deal outside the EU.

Surely we are at least heading towards another referendum, and we are now at the point where we should have been holding first referendum with information in hand with what leaving the EU actually means!

If this thread is anything to go by, I haven't seen much evidence of leave voters changing their minds, even when presented with the most ridiculously damning evidence.

 

[Tubey]

https://www.ft.com/content/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

I don't get how a Brexit supporter can read something like this and still think Brexit is a good idea.

I can only assume they simply choose not to read about it.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Maybe read the ruling Joe - http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-00-1526_en.htm?locale=en - it wasn't anything to do with them doing a deal outside the EU.



If this thread is anything to go by, I haven't seen much evidence of leave voters changing their minds, even when presented with the most ridiculously damning evidence.

Well indeed, there does seem a collection of very ardent Brexiteers across the internet, however in my experience it's not synonymous with people I talk to face to face.

 

[abelard]

They all knew what they were voting for, Brexit meant Brexit.........Oh.

I'd be surprised if 22% of voters, Leave or Remain, knew what the single market was on the referendum day

Surely we are at least heading towards another referendum, and we are now at the point where we should have been holding first referendum with information in hand and what leaving the EU actually means!

Maybe. It's typically presumptuous and self-absorbed of us to assume that the EU will just let us waltz back in, if Leave wins a second vote:
https://www.ft.com/content/b7856b3e-86b7-11e8-a29d-73e3d454535d

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Well indeed, there does seem a collection of very ardent Brexiteers across the internet, however in my experience it's not synonymous with people I talk to face to face.

Hope you're right, but then I suppose as @abelard says, it would seem unlikely that the EU will be content to put the sorry mess behind us and carry on as before.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

I'd be surprised if 22% of voters, Leave or Remain, knew what the single market was on the referendum day



Maybe. It's typically presumptuous and self-absorbed of us to assume that the EU will just let us waltz back in, if Leave wins a second vote:
https://www.ft.com/content/b7856b3e-86b7-11e8-a29d-73e3d454535d

Oh EU won't and why would they be charitable we wouldn't, however, we will still be in a better position than if we just leave. Just not as good before this flirtatious wink with nationalism. Slowly but surely more of electorate is understanding what the EU is actually responsible for and not just the go to place to put convenient political negativities at its door.

Still maintain this EU referendum and result is a consequence of world wide financial crash, which has had led people to have less wealth, factor in the ability to get mortgages, affording rents, increasing energy bills, increasing education loans, it just goes on....

 

[abelard]

Still maintain this EU referendum and result is a consequence of world wide financial crash, which has had led people to have less wealth, factor in the ability to get mortgages, affording rents, increasing energy bills, increasing education loans, it just goes on....

Completely agree.

Apart from a minority of comfortable gin-soaked shire Tories who see Brexit as the fruition of their tin-soldiers-in-the-celler Churchill cosplay fantasies, Brexit was a semi-conscious reaction against austerity. "Take Back Control" - nothing could have been better crafted to resonate with the people you describe above.

There were two recessions really - the first, shorter term one, caused by the financial meltdown; and the second, far more prolonged, devastating, and vicious one, cynically imposed by the Tories (and to some extent Lib Dems), based on pretext of the first.

Unlike the United States, Canada, China, Japan, Australia et al, which (at least on paper) have recovered nicely after the obvious appropriate response of fiscal and monetary stimulus, the Eurozone and especially Britain defied all economic wisdom and the experience of the previous Great Depression by cutting the legs out from under their economies at the moment of greatest weakness. The results speak for the themselves.

Brexit was the inevitable but predictably unanticipated backlash against an especially callous and venal ruling class (and its useful idiots, self-proclaimed "Centrist" Panglossian technocratic liberals), which, with all the deranged confidence that British public schooling uniquely instills, assumed that destroying entire generations through half-baked debating society positions like Universal Credit in order to lower its own tax rates would be all just a bit of a lark, and that somebody else would be made to bear responsibility, or suffer consequences.

 

[The binman chronicles]

https://www.ft.com/content/202a60c0-cfd8-11e5-831d-09f7778e7377

I don't get how a Brexit supporter can read something like this and still think Brexit is a good idea.

I can only assume they simply choose not to read about it.

Don't try and blind them with facts and reasonsed arguments. There could be £350 million going back into the NHS as Boris said (minus any divorce payments of course...) and we get to pull up the imaginary drawbridge, all the while tapping into the vast GDP riches of Palau. Win win.