Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Bruce Wayne]

It's funny really. Poor old Dianne Abbott missed a trick when she was bungling her police numbers. Rather than trying to explain herself, she should have just said "Dear boy, this is a campaign you know, we're not expected to have the first idea how we're going to do what we're proposing, that's for government to figure out..."

Indeed, even if she got into government she could have still gotten away with not having the first idea how to implement the thing she was advocating during the campaign, and that would be fine, because as things crumbled all around her, she could pin the blame for the failure on some bloke in Luxembourg who was a bit mean.

It's probably because she's one of them dumb politicians that she hadn't figured this out.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Ok. Then by the logic presented, that it's the government's responsibility to implement the wishes of the voters, what if the government while trying to implement said vote determined that going forward with it would not be in the best interest of the country?

Don't worry old chum. The leavers didn't have a clue how leaving would work out during the campaign. They haven't managed to figure it out when given the top jobs responsible for actually leaving in the last 18 months either, but it'll come. Just have faith and hope those bloody Europeans don't spoil it all. I mean they're the only ones holding us back at the moment.

 

[ilikecheese]

Don't worry old chum. The leavers didn't have a clue how leaving would work out during the campaign. They haven't managed to figure it out when given the top jobs responsible for actually leaving in the last 18 months either, but it'll come. Just have faith and hope those bloody Europeans don't spoil it all. I mean they're the only ones holding us back at the moment.

Everything about this vote just seems so important and so un-thought out. I can respect the idea of leaving. Easy to vote out when you can claim no responsibility if it doesn't work when the status quo was working...with grievances I get that.

For me I just don't see how this even came to a vote without many other things taking place first. Airing and trying to solve grievances might have been a good path.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

In other news, new research found that 'un-managed' migration of Poles into Germany had a much bigger [positive] influence on the German economy than managed migration of highly qualified Poles into the United States - http://www.res.org.uk/details/mediabrief/10921486/POLISH-IMMIGRANTS-STIMULATE-GERMAN-INNOVATION.html

Who'd have thunk it?

 

[peteblue]

Ok. Then by the logic presented, that it's the government's responsibility to implement the wishes of the voters, what if the government while trying to implement said vote determined that going forward with it would not be in the best interest of the country?

If the government had made a decision previously to remain in the EU, fine, we can then vote for a Party that will take us out. That’s democracy. However the government gave the people an explicit vote where we all had one vote, even the MP’s and even the PM. We voted to leave, it is now for the government and the civil service to deliver what was voted on, leaving the EU. Those voting leave knew it would not be easy nor a bed of roses, remember we were all told by the government and project fear, so now we need those in power to get behind the vote and make it work for the U.K. The only thing undermining our efforts to leave are the Remainers who will not accept the result in their misguided belief and ego of their knowing best......

 

[Old Blue 2]

I do believe it's time for a song again...

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I do believe it's time for a song again...

http://journals.sagepub.com/eprint/bTbfVIuxc5VEsRSz6I7D/full

Aversion to change is strongly predictive of support for Trump (and likewise Brexit). Who'd have thought it? And yes, I know that they didn't ask you therefore the study is probably rubbish and you and Pete will continue to think you're a modern day Walter Raleigh.

 

[Harryflashman]

If the government had made a decision previously to remain in the EU, fine, we can then vote for a Party that will take us out. That’s democracy. However the government gave the people an explicit vote where we all had one vote, even the MP’s and even the PM. We voted to leave, it is now for the government and the civil service to deliver what was voted on, leaving the EU. Those voting leave knew it would not be easy nor a bed of roses, remember we were all told by the government and project fear, so now we need those in power to get behind the vote and make it work for the U.K. The only thing undermining our efforts to leave are the Remainers who will not accept the result in their misguided belief and ego of their knowing best......

I’ve discussed with you before I voted remain but ultimately ‘your side won’ so now it’s about getting the best deal and one that will either have a positive impact or if you like the ‘least worst ‘ impact depending on whether you believe economists or whatever . I’ve never shouted down the fact brexit won or my acceptance of democracy. Our opinions of that decision are obviously going to be radically different but we are where we are .

However what you’ve said above is , as far as I can see , not a million miles apart . The idea of a ‘hard Brexit ‘ terrifies me and if I get an opportunity to vote against it and reframe the debate of how we exit then I’ll do so but as you say it’s for the government to decide but will you be of the same mind as mind if we leave but remain in the customs union ? If the government decides that ? That’s a genuine question because, as has been discussed ad infinium , it was a simple yes/no vote with no parameters so both of us I’d imagine want very different exits . What you’re suggesting is , I assume , it’s thats the governments job ? That’s fine but it’s also fine to attempt to influence that decision as a voter, a mp or even a peer because that’s democracy isn’t it ?

On your second point that it’s only the remainers ‘undermining our efforts to leave ‘ can I counter with a foreign secretary suggesting that the PM’s favoured plan is ‘crazy ‘ , the constant utterances from those in a confidence and supply arrangement with the government and Mogg with his posturing and grandstanding all surely can’t ease the negotiations and present a United front ?

 

[peteblue]

I’ve discussed with you before I voted remain but ultimately ‘your side won’ so now it’s about getting the best deal and one that will either have a positive impact or if you like the ‘least worst ‘ impact depending on whether you believe economists or whatever . I’ve never shouted down the fact brexit won or my acceptance of democracy. Our opinions of that decision are obviously going to be radically different but we are where we are .

However what you’ve said above is , as far as I can see , not a million miles apart . The idea of a ‘hard Brexit ‘ terrifies me and if I get an opportunity to vote against it and reframe the debate of how we exit then I’ll do so but as you say it’s for the government to decide but will you be of the same mind as mind if we leave but remain in the customs union ? If the government decides that ? That’s a genuine question because, as has been discussed ad infinium , it was a simple yes/no vote with no parameters so both of us I’d imagine want very different exits . What you’re suggesting is , I assume , it’s thats the governments job ? That’s fine but it’s also fine to attempt to influence that decision as a voter, a mp or even a peer because that’s democracy isn’t it ?

On your second point that it’s only the remainers ‘undermining our efforts to leave ‘ can I counter with a foreign secretary suggesting that the PM’s favoured plan is ‘crazy ‘ , the constant utterances from those in a confidence and supply arrangement with the government and Mogg with his posturing and grandstanding all surely can’t ease the negotiations and present a United front ?

Thanks for this. The problem with a customs union is that we still have to abide by EU decisions and we will still not be free to strike up our own free trade agreements, it’s just another way of sucking us back under EU control. There is no doubt that the difficulties raised continually by the EU can be overcome with willingness on both sides, but the EU are not willing to do so.

As an example, we want to have sensible trading relationships with the EU and sensible arrangements for Defence and Security, but even though the U.K. provides a major portion of European Defence, the EU are now saying that once we leave, the U.K. cannot be ‘trusted’ with sensitive information regarding the Galileo project, into which we have poured much money and expertise. This is an absolute calculated insult to our nation, not done by European governments directly, but via the vehicle of the bureaucracy. So just let that sink in, the U.K. which has twice fought for Europe within a century, which is one of two European nations on the UN Security Council, is a key provider of military via NATO, providing military defence in the Baltic states, one of only two European countries with nuclear arms, who provided money and expertise to develop Galileo in the first place and is expected to provide the ground stations for the system on British overseas territories in Ascension Island and the Falklands, ‘cannot be trusted’, while all and sundry countries are joining the EU and no doubt can be ‘trusted’. To a bureaucracy, this of course makes perfect sense, but this will now force the U.K. to develop and build its own system, seek financial redress, stop technology transfers, and tell the EU where they can shove their base stations. It’s all logical you see, but all flows out of the EU bureaucracy handling the talks......

 

[orchard]

Brexit: food prices and availability report published by Committee

10 May 2018
The EU Energy and Environment Sub-Committee publishes its report on the potential impacts of Brexit on the price and availability of food for UK consumers.

• Report: Brexit: food prices and availability (HTML)
• Report: Brexit: food prices and availability (PDF)
• Inquiry: Brexit: food security
• EU Energy and Environment Sub-Committee

Key findings
Thirty per cent of food eaten in the UK comes from the EU, and another 11 per cent from non-EU countries under the terms of trade deals negotiated by the EU. Whilst the UK Government hopes to negotiate a trade agreement to allow tariff-free and ‘frictionless’ imports of food to continue, this is by no means a guaranteed outcome.

The Committee found that even in the ‘best case scenario’, with no tariffs and few customs barriers, international rules would oblige the UK to conduct more customs and borders checks than is currently the case. If an agreement cannot be negotiated by the time the UK leaves the EU the increase in tariffs could lead to significant price rises for consumers, whilst the additional customs workload could choke the UK’s ports and airports and significantly disrupt food deliveries.

The Committee found that EU food imports could not easily be replaced by either producing more in the UK or importing more from non-EU countries. UK self-sufficiency has been declining for the past 30 years, and could not quickly be reversed, whilst even Food Minister George Eustice MP downplayed the scale of new post-Brexit trade deals when he appeared before the Committee.

Chair's comments
Lord Teverson, Chairman of the Sub-Committee, said:

“The Government has some important choices to make. They have said they want to maintain high food standards but also that they would be willing to have minimal customs checks to avoid disruption at borders. They have said they want UK food and farming to be exemplars of high-quality production but also that they will seek trade deals that secure lower prices for consumers.

We are calling on the Government to set out what checks they do intend to carry out on food imports, to allow the food industry and customs authorities time to prepare and to reassure consumers that standards will be upheld. And we would urge the Government to consider the impact that Brexit may have on food inequality in the UK: will we have a situation where high quality, local produce is available for those who can afford it, with cheaper food imported for those on lower incomes? The UK needs a comprehensive food policy, to tackle these complex issues, and we urge the Government to produce one with some urgency.”

Further information

• About Parliament: Select committees
• Visiting Parliament: Watch committees

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You're coming across as rather disingenuous Pete, as the very act of leaving the EU disrupts large numbers of cooperative arrangements that many who advocated for us remaining are very keen on. To then complain on us losing some of those arrangements despite being told that's exactly what would happen strikes me as rather odd. Did you really swallow the rhetoric that we could have our cake and eat it?

 

[Harryflashman]

Thanks for this. The problem with a customs union is that we still have to abide by EU decisions and we will still not be free to strike up our own free trade agreements, it’s just another way of sucking us back under EU control. There is no doubt that the difficulties raised continually by the EU can be overcome with willingness on both sides, but the EU are not willing to do so.

As an example, we want to have sensible trading relationships with the EU and sensible arrangements for Defence and Security, but even though the U.K. provides a major portion of European Defence, the EU are now saying that once we leave, the U.K. cannot be ‘trusted’ with sensitive information regarding the Galileo project, into which we have poured much money and expertise. This is an absolute calculated insult to our nation, not done by European governments directly, but via the vehicle of the bureaucracy. So just let that sink in, the U.K. which has twice fought for Europe within a century, which is one of two European nations on the UN Security Council, is a key provider of military via NATO, providing military defence in the Baltic states, one of only two European countries with nuclear arms, who provided money and expertise to develop Galileo in the first place and is expected to provide the ground stations for the system on British overseas territories in Ascension Island and the Falklands, ‘cannot be trusted’, while all and sundry countries are joining the EU and no doubt can be ‘trusted’. To a bureaucracy, this of course makes perfect sense, but this will now force the U.K. to develop and build its own system, seek financial redress, stop technology transfers, and tell the EU where they can shove their base stations. It’s all logical you see, but all flows out of the EU bureaucracy handling the talks......

So in short we both have to avoid by the governments decision on what kind of Brexit they negotiate but only if you get the one you want ?

That’s not me being snarky but earlier you said it was for “the government to deliver ... and make it work for the Uk “ . so at the minute the PM seems to believe, God knows what she believes , that the way forward is via a customs union . If that is put forward and chosen why is does your opinion change ? I accept all your points but during the debate their wasn’t a variety of choices , various leave campaigners suggested all manner of solutions so none of us know what the electorate voted on . As you have said it’s for the government to enact so what gives the hard Brexit (for want of a better phrase) proponents the right of veto to everything else ? We can’t leave a club and expect to retain the privileges of membership of that club , we can negotiate but I can understand why that’s their reaction. As we all know a lot goes into being a EU member , if we leave then they’ve every right to remove much of the privileges. The fact we’ll then be paying more to be an associate member with no powers seems to an absolute necessity of the situation remain voters placed us in . It’s a bad job but we’ve got to make the best of it .


Mate it’s clear I want the weakest possible Brexit , in a perfect world there would never have been a vote or remain would have won . It’s been messy in so many ways and I believe it’s going to get worse but that’s my opinion however it’s happening and I have to accept that but what I struggle to follow is that it seems having won an in/out you get to dictate what you’ll accept .

 

[Old Blue 2]

http://journals.sagepub.com/eprint/bTbfVIuxc5VEsRSz6I7D/full

Aversion to change is strongly predictive of support for Trump (and likewise Brexit). Who'd have thought it? And yes, I know that they didn't ask you therefore the study is probably rubbish and you and Pete will continue to think you're a modern day Walter Raleigh.

C'mon, Bruce, lighten up, eh?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

C'mon, Bruce, lighten up, eh?

All of my posts are jokes ffs. Can't you tell?

 

[Armel]

You're coming across as rather disingenuous Pete, as the very act of leaving the EU disrupts large numbers of cooperative arrangements that many who advocated for us remaining are very keen on. To then complain on us losing some of those arrangements despite being told that's exactly what would happen strikes me as rather odd. Did you really swallow the rhetoric that we could have our cake and eat it?

Theoretically could you not be happier with a hard Brexit? And I mean out of everything: Euratom, Galileo, Erasmus (as a EU country; you can still off course join as a partner or other partner country- more expensive for students but the state can pay to make it more accessible for the less wealthy students), single European sky etc ... You won't have to deal with the constant blaming of Brussels etc... in the papers. Not a fan of the "it's everybody's fault but mine" attitude. After hard brexit this will be less prevalent, no one to blame but themselves. Well I imagine there will be some complaining about no bespoke deals but sooner or later that will also end. In a soft-brexit scenario (the most likely outcome), the everyone's fault but mine scenario will continue. I imagine there will be another uproar of anti-europeanness after the whole Eurovision (nothing to do with the EU) thing later this weekend.