Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Old Blue 2]

With respect, those are such simplistic questions that I'm not sure as to their point.

I only read this far of your post, Bruce. If you can't see the point, your problem - no point in going any further. I love the way you act daft (and yes, I'll buy you a coalyard!).

 

[Old Blue 2]

Ignoring the military analysis for a second I'm intrigued on your take on the Irish border issue. The UK voted to Leave so fundamentally you surely agree that the onus is on the UK to offer the first line of potential solutions (to the various issues caused by Brexit). Agree? But they haven't done that in many areas - particularly Ireland.

The two publicly stated positions of "No border infrastructure of any kind on the island of Ireland" and "we are leaving the Customs Union/taking back control" just cannot be reconciled by anyone not off their head on drugs. Talk of "technological solutions" are plain insulting without the back-up detail.

So I don't see how you've come to blame "the top officials in the EU apper to me to be hell-bent on making things as difficult as possible"? To me the obvious solution is a form of border checks down the Irish Sea but Theresa May is in the grip of both the DUP and the moronic wing of the Tory party to have the balls to lay it out.

I don't have a 'take' on the Irish border issue, as I am not sufficiently informed of the intricacies of the agreement which has taken both sides to the position it is in at present. I freely admit that, as I have never gone into Irish politics deeply. The present situation appears to work. One would expect a reasonable approach to continue to make it work across all the future issues.

Your second paragraph talks of people 'not off their head on drugs', and 'tecnical solutions'. I never mentioned either of thos things so I will make no comment.

As for your first sentence in the last paragraph, have you not heard their pronouncements since June 2016? A more nasty 'dog-in-the-manger' attitude you will not find anywhere. They appear obstructive at every turn to me. I wonder if it has anything to do with losing revenue, ultimately?

I see you are taken up with the Irish border issue, but there are many more issues than just that with regard to leaving the EU...

 

[tsubaki]

Napoleon was gone, and there was no longer a maritime threat to Britain. There was also no longer a threat to Prussia. Militarism on the European continent was slow to develop, but with the nascent German state developing, it kicked off again in 1870 with the Franco-Prussian war.

Yes - but it isn't "militarism", it was the idiotic leadership of people who didn't know and didn't bother to find out what an actual war was like and who usually go on to lead their own country into disaster.

The one factor that is common to almost all Western European crises since Martel's defeat of the Muslims in the eighth century is that a country gets an idiot leader or leaders who decides that their glory, honour, virtue and wealth etc is more important than other people being left in peace (or indeed alive) - this is after all what led to Charlemagne, the Viking invasions, 1066, the Crusades (the ones in the Middle East and the ones in Europe), Phillip Augustus, Edward I, the Hundred Years War (Edward III and Henry V especially), the era of the condottieri in Italy, the associated schisms in the Catholic Church, the Reformation and the subsequent wars of religion, the Armada, the Dutch Independence revolt, the Thirty Years' War, the English Civil Wars, Louis XIV, the War of Jenkins' Ear, the Seven Year's War, the wars following the French Revolution, Napoleon, 1870, World War 1 and World War 2.

What the development of the EU has resulted in is that idiot leaders now have less power and less incentive to try to prove their manhood by getting other people to fight for them.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Yes - but it isn't "militarism", it was the idiotic leadership of people who didn't know and didn't bother to find out what an actual war was like and who usually go on to lead their own country into disaster.

The one factor that is common to almost all Western European crises since Martel's defeat of the Muslims in the eighth century is that a country gets an idiot leader or leaders who decides that their glory, honour, virtue and wealth etc is more important than other people being left in peace (or indeed alive) - this is after all what led to Charlemagne, the Viking invasions, 1066, the Crusades (the ones in the Middle East and the ones in Europe), Phillip Augustus, Edward I, the Hundred Years War (Edward III and Henry V especially), the era of the condottieri in Italy, the associated schisms in the Catholic Church, the Reformation and the subsequent wars of religion, the Armada, the Dutch Independence revolt, the Thirty Years' War, the English Civil Wars, Louis XIV, the War of Jenkins' Ear, the Seven Year's War, the wars following the French Revolution, Napoleon, 1870, World War 1 and World War 2.

What the development of the EU has resulted in is that idiot leaders now have less power and less incentive to try to prove their manhood by getting other people to fight for them.

Good post, 't', but go tell the last paragraph to all of the families who lost loved ones as a result of Blair and his WMD statements... A modern example of power, and sending people to their deaths unnecessarily (both British and other forces, and the population of the country invaded).

 

[Ruairi77]

Good post, 't', but go tell the last paragraph to all of the families who lost loved ones as a result of Blair and his WMD statements... A modern example of power, and sending people to their deaths unnecessarily (both British and other forces, and the population of the country invaded).

Right, so maybe leaving NATO makes more sense than Brexit. (leaving NATO doesn't make sense)

 

[Charlie Sweet]

As for your first sentence in the last paragraph, have you not heard their pronouncements since June 2016? A more nasty 'dog-in-the-manger' attitude you will not find anywhere. They appear obstructive at every turn to me. I wonder if it has anything to do with losing revenue, ultimately?

I see you are taken up with the Irish border issue, but there are many more issues than just that with regard to leaving the EU...

There are lots of issues certainly. The general economic and social outlook being key. Behind that though the Irish border issue has a major impact on me personally so I am very anxious about it.

Just what is it you feel that the EU are being obstructive towards? ("at every turn"?). An angry feeling is certainly brewing as we are now so far down the line but the UK still hasn't put forward any meaningful solution yet still trots out these polar opposite position statements.

 

[tsubaki]

Good post, 't', but go tell the last paragraph to all of the families who lost loved ones as a result of Blair and his WMD statements... A modern example of power, and sending people to their deaths unnecessarily (both British and other forces, and the population of the country invaded).

The EU opposed the Iraq War though.

 

[peteblue]

With respect, those are such simplistic questions that I'm not sure as to their point. Indeed, if I were cynical I'd say that such simplistic reasoning are possibly why we're in this situation in the first place. Of course there will be some trade with the EU. Markets and supply chains that have been built up over decades will not evaporate over night and I don't think a single person would be so daft to have suggested they would.

The question has always been do we want operations with the rest of Europe to be as smooth and frictionless as possible, or do we want to put up barriers? I can travel to Russia should I wish, but the visa process is both expensive and time consuming. Likewise with trade. It will continue, but if we erect customs controls at our border or discontinue working with the EU on the standards and regulations that underpin our trade then it will be made much harder.

The thing is, every single attempt to analyse the questions you raise in any degree of depth have been poo poohed by you and others in this thread for the pure reason that you don't like the outcome they suggest. You then say that it's impossible to predict the future, we should get behind the country and boldly venture into the dark.

But he’s right though, the answer to all of his questions will be Yes.....

 

[Bruce Wayne]

But he’s right though, the answer to all of his questions will be Yes.....

But it's such a silly question. You could equally say "Will our companies be able to 'trade with the world' were we to stay in the EU?" and again, the answer would obviously be yes as well. What would it prove for you?

 

[peteblue]

But it's such a silly question. You could equally say "Will our companies be able to 'trade with the world' were we to stay in the EU?" and again, the answer would obviously be yes as well. What would it prove for you?

Nothing really, but some folk on here answered No or Possibly.......

 

[bobbydigital]

But it's such a silly question. You could equally say "Will our companies be able to 'trade with the world' were we to stay in the EU?" and again, the answer would obviously be yes as well. What would it prove for you?

If I cut my legs off could I still live? Yes
Does that make it a good idea? No

 

[ilikecheese]

Nothing really, but some folk on here answered No or Possibly.......

I said probably thank you very much.

 

[peteblue]

I said probably thank you very much.

I apologise for understating your answer......

 

[Old Blue 2]

If I cut my legs off could I still live? Yes
Does that make it a good idea? No

You could also die through blood loss...

Spurious analogy.

 

[hullefc]

"Theresa May admits she still doesn't have a workable plan for customs rules with the EU after Brexit
Theresa May admitted she still lacks a workable plan for trading with the EU after Brexit, as she faced Labour taunts over Boris Johnson branding her proposal “crazy”.

Under pressure from Jeremy Corbyn, the prime minister refused to set out her preferred option for future customs rules – or say it would be ready for 2021, when the transition period is due to finish. Ms May insisted her “customs partnership” idea was still on the table – despite the Foreign Secretary’s outburst – alongside a proposal based on unproven technology".

The Tories don't know their backside from their elbow and are failed miserably.