Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Old Blue 2]

I do. Have a sense of humour. I was pointing that the internet/forums dont recognise sarcasm or irony in text. You have admitted to using both, then expect other users to pick up on that.

Then seem to react when they dont.

You are obviously an intelligent bloke, so when you are being sarcastic, or ironic, or are WUMing/trolling, just say so in the post. Its not difficult.

edit. And what exactly was the point you were making that has been proved?

roydo,
On one of the guitar forums I go on, it is standard practise to post in purple if one is being funny/humorous, etc., because otherwise that does not come over in a two dimensional medium. I believe that was the case in point with what I posted some pages back (not quite coming over as I intended from here). Perhaps that may be the way to go on here in future (posting humour/irony, etc. in purple), if possible with the forum operating tools.

And it was everything that I posted that I believed had been proven, that's all.

And now I'll go back to enjoying (and still not quite believing) that we beat an in-form Leicester City last night. Big sighs of relief all-round, I would think on here. And due in no small measure, I believe, to that stupid club refusing to allow Mahrez to move on, whose absence I consider we profited from. Let's hope Arsenal defend on Saturday night like they defended against Swansea...

 

[GBH73]

Tubey,
That's a reasonable question, and I will give you my reasonable answer.
At the moment, we cannot predict how anything/everything will shake down post-Brexit and outside the EU. That applies across the complete raft of issues which fall to be discussed, decided upon, and implemented. Predictions are possibly the hardest things to state, since they are a look into the future, of which nobody knows what will happen in the intervening period.
One small part of that, for example, is May's present visit to China. The ultimate outcome of any trade deals, we are yet to find out. Additionally, we do not yet know if they will be better than what we have had before, or at present.
Similarly with the status of EU citizens coming to the EU during the so-called 'transition period' and their rights while here, which is in the news. Don't know how that will finally drop, but it appears the EU want things to remain the same, while the Government are saying 'Not so'. But then we only know what we are fed by the media...

I hope that gives you my answer to a satisfactory degree.

Forgive me if I've misunderstood you, but your post seems to answer the question 'how will the UK be better off outside the EU?' with the answer, 'no idea, we'll have to wait and see'. If that's the case, and you presumably voted Leave, why the hell did you vote Leave?

That's a genuine question by the way, I'm not trying to be sarcastic. The majority of people I know who voted Leave did so b/c of some vague 'make Britain great again' fantasy, but when pressed can't really give a logical answer.

My take on this is that you're right, it's impossible to clearly define how leaving the EU will be good for the UK, therefore it's a massive gamble, and one which will affect younger people more than retirees.

 

[Charlie Sweet]

I think it's inevitable that we'll have a second referendum, on the agreed terms.

There has to be another referendum. If the government cannot show how Leaving the EU will be good for the coubtry when the final details emerge from all the negotiations they cannot follow it through.

When people voted Leave some voted on the basis of staying in the common market. Some voted on the basis of a hard Brexit. Nobody knows for sure.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Forgive me if I've misunderstood you, but your post seems to answer the question 'how will the UK be better off outside the EU?' with the answer, 'no idea, we'll have to wait and see'. If that's the case, and you presumably voted Leave, why the hell did you vote Leave?

That's a genuine question by the way, I'm not trying to be sarcastic. The majority of people I know who voted Leave did so b/c of some vague 'make Britain great again' fantasy, but when pressed can't really give a logical answer.

My take on this is that you're right, it's impossible to clearly define how leaving the EU will be good for the UK, therefore it's a massive gamble, and one which will affect younger people more than retirees.

Fair post, and I'll give you my response. I guess you're fairly new to this thread, so I'll preface this by saying I've explained this before. Forgive what might turn out to be a fairly long post.

I am one of those who was in their twenties in the 1970s, when the whole matter of the UK joining the Common Market was finally resolved with our entry (we had tried to join on many occasions before, but De Gaulle kept saying 'Non!'). So in the 1970s we joined what was then a community whose aims were beneficial trading for the member states.

Over a period of decades, that trading union gradually became a political union, which is a complete step-change away from what was presented to us in the 1970s, and on which we ultimately voted (the trading union, that is, not the political union).

Additionally, our legal system became subsumed to the European legal system which, again, was never presented to us in the 1970s. I believe our judiciary should be free from outside interference when making judgement on matters that wholly pertain to the UK.

At this point I will mention again, which has been mentioned previously in this thread, that I was a civil servant for several decades, rising to a Management grade, and worked on secondment to Headquarters on several different projects over the years. I saw not only the inside working of our UK Government, but also the impositions placed upon it with regard to the legislation which it tried to implement, on occasions direct intervention and being told what we could and could not do. I cannot disclose what those things were, since I am bound by the Official Secrets Act until I die (yes, that is the scope of that Act), and if I were to do so, then if reported back, I would lay myself open to prosecution, which I am not prepared to do. However, I will say that I did not like a fair bit of what I saw when on secondment - it was a real eye-opener.

As far as the military goes, I am a member of a local aviation club that has monthly speakers. One recent speaker was from RAF Marham, an important base in RAF fighter-bomber operations right up to present. At the end of his talk questions inevitably turned to the 'EU Army' scenario, which subject had been mooted for some time. He was very circumspect, and said he could not speak on a lot of the questions put to him, and could not be quoted on them, but he did nod or shake his head to them. When I have mentioned this previously in this thread I have been shot down (no pun intended!) and ridiculed when the matter of the UK armed forces being totally subsumed to a EU army taking direct, non-negotiable orders from military personnel in EU countries (not only the 'big' EU states military personnel) was pointed out. I came away from that meeting with a far clearer view of matters than anything that has been put out by the media up to then, and since. I am certainly NOT anti the military of any of the EU countries (roydo and a couple of others know the reason why, but I will never state it in public forum).

A couple of other things that caught my attention. Something that was not given a great deal of attention, was the fact that the EU gave a loan to Ford to move a part of their operation from the UK to Turkey (a non-EU country). Is this how the EU acts towards one of its own members? Secondly, when the Port Talbot steelworks was in real financial difficulty, it transpired that the UK Government first had to ask permission from the EU in order to be able to provide ANY financial assistance. WE had to ask THEM for permission! I looked at these two things and thought that the EU involvement/interference is not what I want from an organisation that the UK is part of.

I considered all of the above, and came to the conclusion that my children's and my grandchildren's generations would be better away from this all-encompassing organisation. I considered that after joining we have been duped by our own Government(s) over the decades from the 1970s onwards, and the EU has over time has exerted an increasing and oppressive hold over the UK. I did not believe the best way forward for the UK was to be part of this union, which presently is 28 states (ourselves included), and seeks to increase the numbers in the future. I believe we would be fooling ourselves if we believe we exert any major pressure on the decision-making process within that union.

For the reasons given above, I decided to vote 'Leave'. I am not a UK-cented bigot, not a racist, not a 'Little Englander' (some of the slurs that those who voted 'Leave' have been called in this thread). I think for myself and make my own decisions.

I hope the foregoing explains things in depth for you.

 

[GBH73]

Fair post, and I'll give you my response. I guess you're fairly new to this thread, so I'll preface this by saying I've explained this before. Forgive what might turn out to be a fairly long post.

I am one of those who was in their twenties in the 1970s, when the whole matter of the UK joining the Common Market was finally resolved with our entry (we had tried to join on many occasions before, but De Gaulle kept saying 'Non!'). So in the 1970s we joined what was then a community whose aims were beneficial trading for the member states.

Over a period of decades, that trading union gradually became a political union, which is a complete step-change away from what was presented to us in the 1970s, and on which we ultimately voted (the trading union, that is, not the political union).

Additionally, our legal system became subsumed to the European legal system which, again, was never presented to us in the 1970s. I believe our judiciary should be free from outside interference when making judgement on matters that wholly pertain to the UK.

At this point I will mention again, which has been mentioned previously in this thread, that I was a civil servant for several decades, rising to a Management grade, and worked on secondment to Headquarters on several different projects over the years. I saw not only the inside working of our UK Government, but also the impositions placed upon it with regard to the legislation which it tried to implement, on occasions direct intervention and being told what we could and could not do. I cannot disclose what those things were, since I am bound by the Official Secrets Act until I die (yes, that is the scope of that Act), and if I were to do so, then if reported back, I would lay myself open to prosecution, which I am not prepared to do. However, I will say that I did not like a fair bit of what I saw when on secondment - it was a real eye-opener.

As far as the military goes, I am a member of a local aviation club that has monthly speakers. One recent speaker was from RAF Marham, an important base in RAF fighter-bomber operations right up to present. At the end of his talk questions inevitably turned to the 'EU Army' scenario, which subject had been mooted for some time. He was very circumspect, and said he could not speak on a lot of the questions put to him, and could not be quoted on them, but he did nod or shake his head to them. When I have mentioned this previously in this thread I have been shot down (no pun intended!) and ridiculed when the matter of the UK armed forces being totally subsumed to a EU army taking direct, non-negotiable orders from military personnel in EU countries (not only the 'big' EU states military personnel) was pointed out. I came away from that meeting with a far clearer view of matters than anything that has been put out by the media up to then, and since. I am certainly NOT anti the military of any of the EU countries (roydo and a couple of others know the reason why, but I will never state it in public forum).

A couple of other things that caught my attention. Something that was not given a great deal of attention, was the fact that the EU gave a loan to Ford to move a part of their operation from the UK to Turkey (a non-EU country). Is this how the EU acts towards one of its own members? Secondly, when the Port Talbot steelworks was in real financial difficulty, it transpired that the UK Government first had to ask permission from the EU in order to be able to provide ANY financial assistance. WE had to ask THEM for permission! I looked at these two things and thought that the EU involvement/interference is not what I want from an organisation that the UK is part of.

I considered all of the above, and came to the conclusion that my children's and my grandchildren's generations would be better away from this all-encompassing organisation. I considered that after joining we have been duped by our own Government(s) over the decades from the 1970s onwards, and the EU has over time has exerted an increasing and oppressive hold over the UK. I did not believe the best way forward for the UK was to be part of this union, which presently is 28 states (ourselves included), and seeks to increase the numbers in the future. I believe we would be fooling ourselves if we believe we exert any major pressure on the decision-making process within that union.

For the reasons given above, I decided to vote 'Leave'. I am not a UK-cented bigot, not a racist, not a 'Little Englander' (some of the slurs that those who voted 'Leave' have been called in this thread). I think for myself and make my own decisions.

I hope the foregoing explains things in depth for you.

Thanks for the that in depth response - I can't say I agree with your position however I do appreciate the time taken to respond and I respect the eloquence with which you state your argument.

I have a friend I used to go the match with who also voted Leave for much of the same reasons you've listed. He's salt of the earth, died in the wool old school socialist without any prejudices. He's in his 60s and we disagree over a lot of things, but we always debate rather than argue and we do occasionally manage to influence each other (we do of course share many similarities, not least Everton and rock groups of the 60s & 70s).

I think that with any government/organisation there are naturally many frustrations and hindrances when trying to pass legislation/effect change - the EU is no different in that regard. I personally feel that the benefits of membership (especially economic and cultural) outweigh the detriments, and I do worry about the repercussions of Brexit, especially with regard to younger generations. I also think that a great many people voted Leave based on spurious notions fed to them by the likes of Farage & Johnson, some of them xenophobic and bigoted. Of course I don't include people like yourself in that bracket.

On a more important matter, Telecasters are much finer instruments than Les Pauls - even left handed Sunbursts

 

[Bruce Wayne]

From the University of Manchester - http://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Public-Opinion.pdf

Nineteen months on from the EU referendum, University of Manchester Professors Rob Ford and Maria Sobolewska have co-authored the report "Brexit and public opinion," by The UK in a Changing Europe, which underlines the divisions in UK society:

• The emergence of a values divide around differing attitudes to diversity
• Brexit has created new political identities: Leavers and Remainers view the world through prisms which shape their receptiveness to evidence based arguments
• The generations are divided: 73% of 18-24 year olds voted Remain; 60% of over 65s voted Leave. This division has grown even more stark following the general election and is turning into a political cleavage
• Brexit exposed the growing distinction between public attitudes in towns and cities, which relates to their contrasting economic trajectories: areas that experienced the most decline in recent decades voted Leave; whereas areas of relative growth were more likely to vote Remain
• Divisions exist between the individual nations of the UK over fundamental constitutional questions
• Divisions are also apparent between party leaders and their MPs.

The report highlights a potentially emergent divide. Those who thought equal opportunities for ethnic minorities have gone too far voted heavily for Leave, and those who felt equal opportunities have not gone far enough were much more likely to have voted Remain.

The report warns that the robust link between views about ethnic equality and votes in the EU referendum could be a sign of an emergent values divide in the UK.

"There's little evidence to support the prime minister's statement that 'the country has come together after Brexit." Instead she is presiding over a divided and polarised nation," he continued.

BW: and perhaps more pertinent to this thread

The authors make several arguments as to why it is highly unlikely people will change their minds about the UK leaving the EU:

1. people's preferences about EU membership are tied up with values, which are entrenched and unlikely to shift
2. 'confirmation bias' leads Remainers and Leavers to discount information that does not correspond with their values
3. for many Leavers, the attraction of Brexit was about identity politics more than economic calculus

 

[joey_macmo]

I didn't claim I was trolling. It was an ironic post, and I stated it to be such when some people (I will refrain from giving them their correct handles) didn't have the brains to see it.

The likes of you are just ready to jump down certain people's throats every time they post.

Get a life, joey. Try to post like someone who has at least a modicum of intelligence, because whatever you post in reply to me doesn't show that at all...

So you were posting that BBC link and quote thinking it proved your point then.

You posted a link to a story that showed and said the exact opposite of what you thought, all because you didnt even read the rest of the article.

I mean it even contained this line

"Brexiteers are going to be like the cat with the cream. They're like 'there you go, told you so', which of course is ridiculous".

Now that’s what I would describe as irony, but I suppose I’m only a young pup so what do I know.

 

[joey_macmo]

Unfortunate choice of word 'deranged', Prev.

As I have said in the previous post, Some on here (almost certainly younger posters) appear to lack the sense of humour that was once prevalent in the times of my younger days. That is sad.

Some people simply do not like a direct answer to their jibes/snide comments when they are replied to. I can't do anything about that, but if you (not you, personally, Prev) can't take it, don't dish it out in the first place.

Haha literally only yesterday you were claiming I pick on you, now you’re saying if you can’t take it don’t dish it out.

Make your mind up.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Haha literally only yesterday you were claiming I pick on you, now you’re saying if you can’t take it don’t dish it out.

Make your mind up.

You don't give up, do you, joey.

Deranged is a slur, a slight, or even worse, on a person's mental capacity, and that word was directed at me.

If you can't see that, then there's nothing more I can say...

 

[Old Blue 2]

On a more important matter, Telecasters are much finer instruments than Les Pauls - even left handed Sunbursts

If I may digress in a most important thread for a moment. I cannot speak ill of Telecasters, since one of my favourite guitarists since the 1960s has shouldered one: Keith Richards of the Stones. However, each to his own, and I place my own stash above any Tele or other Banjocaster (for any lovers of Fenders out there - this is a joke, folks!) produced by Leo Fender
My present stash:

From left: 1976 LP Deluxe (all original)/1991 LP Custom/2014 Custom Shop '61 reissue SG/LP Standard/2009 Custom Shop '57 VOS LP Junior/ 2009 '08 LP Standard.

I also have a 2002 Taylor 314 acoustic, and a 1971 Eko Rio Bravo 12-string. All lefty, of course!

 

[GBH73]

If I may digress in a most important thread for a moment. I cannot speak ill of Telecasters, since one of my favourite guitarists since the 1960s has shouldered one: Keith Richards of the Stones. However, each to his own, and I place my own stash above any Tele or other Banjocaster (for any lovers of Fenders out there - this is a joke, folks!) produced by Leo Fender
My present stash:

From left: 1976 LP Deluxe (all original)/1991 LP Custom/2014 Custom Shop '61 reissue SG/LP Standard/2009 Custom Shop '57 VOS LP Junior/ 2009 '08 LP Standard.

I also have a 2002 Taylor 314 acoustic, and a 1971 Eko Rio Bravo 12-string. All lefty, of course!

To be fair, SGs only look good when they're left handed, thanks to Iommi. The 6/12 string double neck that Jimmy Page used is the exception.

 

[Ruairi77]

I didn't claim I was trolling. It was an ironic post, and I stated it to be such when some people (I will refrain from giving them their correct handles) didn't have the brains to see it.

Don't worry OB2, loads of people have trouble spelling my name!

 

[Number_25]

From the University of Manchester - http://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Public-Opinion.pdf

Nineteen months on from the EU referendum, University of Manchester Professors Rob Ford and Maria Sobolewska have co-authored the report "Brexit and public opinion," by The UK in a Changing Europe, which underlines the divisions in UK society:

• The emergence of a values divide around differing attitudes to diversity
• Brexit has created new political identities: Leavers and Remainers view the world through prisms which shape their receptiveness to evidence based arguments
• The generations are divided: 73% of 18-24 year olds voted Remain; 60% of over 65s voted Leave. This division has grown even more stark following the general election and is turning into a political cleavage
• Brexit exposed the growing distinction between public attitudes in towns and cities, which relates to their contrasting economic trajectories: areas that experienced the most decline in recent decades voted Leave; whereas areas of relative growth were more likely to vote Remain
• Divisions exist between the individual nations of the UK over fundamental constitutional questions
• Divisions are also apparent between party leaders and their MPs.

The report highlights a potentially emergent divide. Those who thought equal opportunities for ethnic minorities have gone too far voted heavily for Leave, and those who felt equal opportunities have not gone far enough were much more likely to have voted Remain.

The report warns that the robust link between views about ethnic equality and votes in the EU referendum could be a sign of an emergent values divide in the UK.

"There's little evidence to support the prime minister's statement that 'the country has come together after Brexit." Instead she is presiding over a divided and polarised nation," he continued.

BW: and perhaps more pertinent to this thread

The authors make several arguments as to why it is highly unlikely people will change their minds about the UK leaving the EU:

1. people's preferences about EU membership are tied up with values, which are entrenched and unlikely to shift
2. 'confirmation bias' leads Remainers and Leavers to discount information that does not correspond with their values
3. for many Leavers, the attraction of Brexit was about identity politics more than economic calculus

Thank you for sharing this, I spent my lunch reading it and found its conclusions interesting.

I think there's a significant amount of misinformation concerning how the ethnic minorities are treated in the eyes of the law, magnified by how major news outlets respond on said matters. I'd theorise that this alone has more to do with the 'age' divide than commentators are willing to give credit to, young people tend to be significantly better educated and as such are willing to explore facts and opinions in more detail.

Moreover, I do think that arguments can still be made that'll reshape individuals beliefs concerning the issue. It would be wrong to ignore the sheer number of people that put their cross in leave as a way of putting up a middle finger to the establishment.

 

[peteblue]

I see this thread is bumping along the bottom of the out voters seem to be the devil incarnate, one wonders if the referendum had gone with the in vote this thread would be redundant as I for one would have accepted the vote!
Debate is used in many ways and can easily be misjudged - I left Liverpool in the 1980's not far away, but I realised what was missing in the areas I lived nice etc , but no understanding of the traditional Scouse humour as you say it's hard on a forum for it to come across sometimes

But to be fair Joey you didn’t know what you were voting for and/or are getting on in years, besides being a racist......

 

[peteblue]

Thank you for sharing this, I spent my lunch reading it and found its conclusions interesting.

I think there's a significant amount of misinformation concerning how the ethnic minorities are treated in the eyes of the law, magnified by how major news outlets respond on said matters. I'd theorise that this alone has more to do with the 'age' divide than commentators are willing to give credit to, young people tend to be significantly better educated and as such are willing to explore facts and opinions in more detail.

Moreover, I do think that arguments can still be made that'll reshape individuals beliefs concerning the issue. It would be wrong to ignore the sheer number of people that put their cross in leave as a way of putting up a middle finger to the establishment.

Hahahahahaha.......wrong on both counts.......