Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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We are unable to agree free trade deals other than those negotiated by the EU......"

That doesn't answer the question. Which sector of the economy is not allowed to trade with which areas/countries of the world because of the EU? Is it cars to India or America or China or Thailand? Is it machines to Japan, Argentina, Uganda, Russia? Is it pharmaceuticals to Australia, Canada, Philippines, Kenya? Is the service sector e.g film hindered by the EU and can't sell them to Pakistan, Ecuador, Somalia? Is the financial sector constrained by the EU from doing business in America, Asia, Africa?

It is a misnomer peddled by the Tories that the world is just waiting for British goods to be 'free from the shackles of the EU'. Any trade deal with America will be like the TTIP one that was proposed and will involve the further privatisation of the NHS with US health companies taking over health provision and the introduction o insurance based health schemes. Will this supposed 'free trade' deal with America that is supposed to be on the table allow Jaguar to reverse its cuts in production? Has the EU held back British arms sales to the world or Rolls Royce engines? Those two sectors don't need any free trade agreement with countries as shown from the scandals that surround their selling operations. Australia isn't exactly chomping at the bit to get a trade deal done. The mere mention of trading with the UK has brought back memories about how the UK screwed them before the UK joined the Common Market.

The EU isn't restraining UK from trading with the rest of the world as is shown from the UK increasing its non EU trade. The constraints on the UK increasing its world trade are not the EU but investment in goods that the world wants.

The Tories are not interested in the nuts and bolts of trade in goods and don't particularly care whether there are industrial job losses in Liverpool, Belfast, Ellesmere Port etc. their number one focus and priority is the city. But they have sold that short because they are 'playing the political gain from Brexit game' and this has highlighted their incompetence as they act like a bunch of amateurs.
 
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.......the EU will not allow The U.K. to sign any trade agreement while we remain in the EU......

But that was always going to be the case. It's written in law. But then our dodgy media allowed the likes of Farage, Liam Fox and Boris to peddle their lies that we'd be off agreeing trade deals with the likes of Brazil, India and China within a fortnight or so of the EU Referendum vote! Just lies and more lies.

The UK also won't be able to negotiate trade deals within any transition period either so this clownlike Brexit government will continue to blame the EU for that as well.
 
But that was always going to be the case. It's written in law. But then our dodgy media allowed the likes of Farage, Liam Fox and Boris to peddle their lies that we'd be off agreeing trade deals with the likes of Brazil, India and China within a fortnight or so of the EU Referendum vote! Just lies and more lies.

The UK also won't be able to negotiate trade deals within any transition period either so this clownlike Brexit government will continue to blame the EU for that as well.

When prophecy fails! (book) Doomsday cults do it all the time. Just wait for watered down Brexit deal, and how Brexit devotion saved the UK, when in reality it will be same if not worse position compared to when we were full members.
 
Perhaps the issue of leaving the EU is not necesserilly it being bad for the country but because of the people who are in charge of it?

In any other scenario, the only people you don't want in charge of a big change would be a bunch of people who didn't want the change in the first place.

Plus the fact the prime minister in charge cannot control their own party let alone this! They haven't even been arsed to fix issues within the country, apparantly only 3 flat blocks have had cladding removed since the tragedy. You would think they would have more urgency about issues like that eh?
 
To think that this buffoon is supposed to be the brains behind the Tories negotiation strategy.

David Davis
Twelve awkward moments from David Davis's Brexit committee appearance


Brexit secretary discussed topics including jam from Somerset and teabags as he faced MPs.

Martin Belam

Wed 24 Jan 2018 12.17 GMTLast modified on Wed 24 Jan 2018 13.17 GMT



David Davis’s latest appearance before the Brexit select committee went about as smoothly as usual. Here are some of the most toe-curling moments.

1. ‘I hadn’t thought through when it would surface’
Davis struggled with the first question from the committee chair, Hilary Benn, on whether there would be a draft legal text to make the pre-Christmas Brexit dealbinding. Davis started by saying it would form part of the final agreement, but when pressed on whether parliament would get to see it, he said: “I hadn’t thought through when it would surface.”

2. ‘That was then, this is now’

Davis laughed off an article he wrote for Conservative Home in July 2016 that Benn quoted directly, which said: “I would expect the new prime minister on 9 September to immediately trigger a large round of global trade deals with all our most favoured trade partners.

“So within two years, before the negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, and therefore before anything material has changed, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU.”

The UK is not, and was not, in a position to negotiate new trade deals until it leaves the EU. Davis said: “I think that was before I was minister. That was then, this is now.”

3. ‘Can you sell jam made in Somerset in Scotland?’
Britain’s innovative jams reared their head again as the SNP MP Joanna Cherry questioned Davis over UK internal market regulations. This argument, Davis said, boils down to whether you can sell jam made in Somerset in Scotland.

In fact, much of the substance of Cherry’s questioning was about whether, in taking on responsibility for regulatory alignment in Westminster, the UK government was making a power grab of competencies from devolved administrations.

The DUP MP Sammy Wilson asked if regulatory alignment would be down to a Northern Ireland administration or Westminster. Davis replied: “It’ll be a bit of both, I think.”

4. No meetings set up
Davis was confident a transition agreement could be concluded in eight weeks and expected a transition period to last between 21 and 27 months. But he then said he had no meetings set up to discuss it with Michel Barnier.

5. ‘I don’t talk about dividends until they are delivered’
Davis rebuffed a question from the Conservative MP Stephen Crabb about where money saved from EU budget contributions could be reinvested. Davis reminded the committee that he used to be director of a public company, and would have been in breach of company law if he promised a dividend without having the cash to back it up. “I don’t talk about dividends until they are delivered,” he said.

However, in May 2016, Davis gave a speech titled the economic case for Brexit, in which he said: “Our trade will almost certainly continue with the EU on similar to current circumstances. In the highly improbable event that it will not, we can accommodate that with domestic policies using the money released by Brexit, the independence dividend.”

6. ‘New facts, new opinions’
Davis, once again shrugging off his previous speeches and articles, said: “Basically I looked at the facts, and as the facts changed, I changed my mind.”

This declaration was immediately seized upon by supporters of reversing Brexit, people campaigning for continued membership of the single market and customs union, and those asking for a second referendum.





Chuka Umunna

✔@ChukaUmunna



WATCH: David Davis just admitted at @CommonsEUexit committee that he "changed his mind" on his previous support for the Customs Union.

If Davis can change his mind, so can the British public. Please RT:

10:12 AM - Jan 24, 2018

7. His phone went off

Play Video
0:41
David Davis's phone ringing interrupts Brexit committee – video
Oops.

8. ‘Are we not a vassal state?’
Conservative ministers appearing before a select committee can often expect some soft-ball questions. Not with Jacob Rees-Mogg. He asked Davis, if the UK is subject to European court of justice jurisdiction (ECJ) and paying into the EU budget on 30 March 2019, “are we not a vassal state?”

After Davis argued that accepting new rules during a transition period was not much of a worry, given that EU lawmaking was historically slow, Rees-Mogg asked: “Isn’t that a really rather weak argument?” The Tory MP posited that the EU might have an incentive to impose financial transaction taxes.

9. ‘Classified teabags’
Addressing Hywel Williams, the Plaid Cymru MP for Arfon, Davis said: “I remember during the cold war that the MoD classified the number of teabags it purchased”, on the basis that the figure might give away the strength of British troops. Williams had been asking for a list of Davis’s department’s work streams.

10. No red lines
Davis told Rees-Mogg “any idiot” who goes into a commercial negotiation trumpeting their red lines ensures these will be the minimum they can achieve. Davis claimed never to have used the phrase.

However, in the House of Commons in 2014, Davis asked David Cameron: “Will the prime minister tell us his intentions as [to] bringing to this house the red-line issues that will feature in his renegotiation, and can he give us a preview of some of those issues today?”

11. ‘It’s all been very straightforward so far, hasn’t it?’
When Stephen Timms, the Labour MP for East Ham, asked Davis about the potential parliamentary obstacles to continued ECJ oversight during a transition period, Davis prompted laughter with his assessment that “it’s all been very straightforward so far, hasn’t it?”

12. ‘If you came more frequently, the sessions might be shorter’
Davis spent the final minutes stressing that he had to get to his next appointment. Closing the session, Benn wryly observed: “If you came more frequently, the sessions might be a bit shorter.”

https://twitter.com/ChukaUmunna/status/956107458811977728
 
What I don't get about this UKIP leader is that he's getting it in the neck for dating this woman who said racist things right?

Why doesn't he just say "Yes, she said something racist. It was wrong and I don't support those views whatsoever, and neither do my party. I've sat down and spoken with her and she's assured me she's a reformed character, so I'm giving her a second chance because I believe in second chances"?

That might all be nonsense like, but still, why isn't he or one of his advisors savvy enough to push that angle?

Instead he's just dodging the question every time out and saying stuff like "we've moved on from that". You can't just "move on" from your missus being a racist if you're a political leader FFS. You have to address it and try to resolve it. I can't believe the party membership is backing this fool

On the bright side, the longer he's stanking the joint up as leader the weaker UKIP will get as a party

But still, his incompetence and naivety is frustrating to watch. I keep getting the urge to stand behind him with a rolled up newspaper and hit him with it every time he dodges addressing the issue
 
What I don't get about this UKIP leader is that he's getting it in the neck for dating this woman who said racist things right?

Why doesn't he just say "Yes, she said something racist. It was wrong and I don't support those views whatsoever, and neither do my party. I've sat down and spoken with her and she's assured me she's a reformed character, so I'm giving her a second chance because I believe in second chances"?

That might all be nonsense like, but still, why isn't he or one of his advisors savvy enough to push that angle?

Instead he's just dodging the question every time out and saying stuff like "we've moved on from that". You can't just "move on" from your missus being a racist if you're a political leader FFS. You have to address it and try to resolve it. I can't believe the party membership is backing this fool

On the bright side, the longer he's stanking the joint up as leader the weaker UKIP will get as a party

But still, his incompetence and naivety is frustrating to watch. I keep getting the urge to stand behind him with a rolled up newspaper and hit him with it every time he dodges addressing the issue
Mate, UKIP are already as weak as they could possibly be. They're a nothing joke of a party with zero MP's and a massive number of memebers leaving by the day. The only people who still consider UKIP even vaguely relevant is the media in their quest for controversy. UKIP would be even worse off then they already are if the media would stop giving them attention they don't warrant and treat them as the irrelevance they are.
 
But that was always going to be the case. It's written in law. But then our dodgy media allowed the likes of Farage, Liam Fox and Boris to peddle their lies that we'd be off agreeing trade deals with the likes of Brazil, India and China within a fortnight or so of the EU Referendum vote! Just lies and more lies.

The UK also won't be able to negotiate trade deals within any transition period either so this clownlike Brexit government will continue to blame the EU for that as well.

Trade deals can be discussed, put in place and agreed, we just can’t sign them until we leave. I would however like to see a link to where Boris et al said we would agree deals within a fortnight, or was this a lie......
 
Trade deals can be discussed, put in place and agreed, we just can’t sign them until we leave. I would however like to see a link to where Boris et al said we would agree deals within a fortnight, or was this a lie......

There are quotes out there from Davies and fox to this effect. If I get a minute I'll find them.

The point though is the Leave campaign said it would be quick and easy to agree the wider trade deals promised.

Davies was hauled before a parliamentary committee this week to account for that exact statement.

Incredibly when he confirmed it would now be years away and how could he explain his previous bullish comments he just shrugged, smiled awkwardly and said "well that was then and this is now".

In the same thrust he also admitted he didnt know all the facts previously.

The man should be charged with fraud.
 
As someone who is involved in guiding the government from a far, by dealing with some of the internal governments agencies, I can tell you that do not have a scooby what they are doing. I had ameeting Tuesday just gone, from a delegation of one of our government agencies and the brief is quite simple: prepare for pen and paper on any import deals.

With just over a year they have no systems in place for customs, border force, imported food or plant health. Literally everything is up in the air.

They've thrown money at some departments within central government, but my take on this is that it will just to pacify the country when we leave, i'd expect statements like "well we consulted with x y z" knowing full well that there was never going to be an outcome.

As for the EU, it is a red tape nightmare. The idea of the union is fantastic, the implementation has been lost. And although they are trying to implement a less bureaucratic system of rules and regulations they are still over worked nightmares to wade through. And the legislation is somehow forgotten when they want to sign a trade deal, controls are reduced on high risk goods all to help the money flow. On one hand they will penalise a country for their issues, then let another country import with the same concerns just because of the revenue generated.
 
Brexit: Britons favour second referendum by 16-point margin – poll


Guardian/ICM survey finds rising interest in vote on final deal as concerns mount over EU talks

Dan Roberts Brexit policy editor


@RobertsDan

Fri 26 Jan 2018


Voters support the idea of holding a second EU referendum by a 16-point margin, according to one of the largest nationwide opinion polls since the Brexit vote.

The ICM survey, conducted as part of a Guardian reporting project, found 47% of people would favour having a final say on Brexit once the terms of the UK’s departure are known, while 34% oppose reopening the question.

Excluding the roughly one-fifth who do not have a view gives a lead of 58% to 42% for a second referendum, showing rising interest in the idea as concern grows over the direction of recent negotiations.

The increased backing has come from both sides of the debate, with one-quarter of leave voters in favour of having another referendum on the final deal.

Other key findings include:

  • Mounting concern about the impact of leaving, with 43% of voters worried Brexit will have a negative effect on the UK economy and a narrow majority believing it will have a negative impact on the “British way of life”.
  • Signs that Labour voters may be becoming more open to a rethink, with 9% of the party’s leave backers switching to remain, and stronger support for a second referendum in marginal Labour seats than elsewhere.
  • A hardening of the Brexit demographic divide, with young voters 17% more likely than before to support remain and over-65s more determined than ever to leave.
  • A widening of the geographic gulf, with voters in Scotland even more likely to vote remain, but support for leave holding up in Wales and parts of England, such as the Midlands.
The consequences of revisiting the vote are hard to predict, with the country still split largely in two, and signs of both camps hardening their positions.

The poll was underpinned by Guardian journalists reporting from around the country, where they found support for leave hardening in Mansfield, Laboursupporters arguing for a second referendum in Bristol, older voters in Torbay who continue to wholeheartedly back Brexit, and students in Leeds angry and concerned that it is going ahead.

Overall, the ICM poll, carried out in mid-January, confirms a small but persistent shift in recent months towards remain, with 51% of those expressing a view saying they were now in favour of staying in the EU.

But this would be a tighter margin than the 52% leave result of the June 2016 referendum, suggesting a clearer mandate for reversing the decision would only come if growing numbers of leavers reacted negatively to the conclusion of negotiations with the EU.

Pollsters have struggled in recent years to predict correct outcomes, although the 5,075 people polled is a representative sample five times bigger than many similar surveys.

Alex Turk, a senior research executive at ICM Unlimited, said: “On the results of this poll of 5,000, the result of a second EU referendum would be far from a foregone conclusion.”

To the extent that there is a shift towards remain, it is largely due to voters who did not, or could not, participate in the referendum saying they would be more likely to do so next time. Of those who voted, 90% said they would stick to their previous choice, and the numbers of people switching sides largely cancel each other out.

But it is the growing numbers of people in both camps who favour revisiting the question that is likely to have the biggest short-term political impact.

Previously, support for a second referendum had been limited. A smaller Guardian/ICM poll in December found 45% of voters wanted the UK to leave the EU regardless of the outcome of negotiations, with 32% wanting a second referendum and 10% favouring a parliamentary vote.

What would happen if parliament were to reject the Brexit deal remains unclear, but many pro-EU campaigners increasingly argue that a vote could be phrased in such a way as to give Britons a chance to change their minds about the overall departure from the EU if they did not like the terms on offer.

Representatives from several leading pro-EU groups met in London recently to consider ways of working more closely on overturning Brexit, rather than merely campaigning for a less extreme version, a tactic some senior business leaders are privately known to favour.

Support for asking the question is also growing in unlikely quarters, as the weakness of the government’s mandate and negotiating stance becomes clearer. Speaking earlier this month, the ex-Ukip leader Nigel Farage said: “Maybe, just maybe, I’m reaching the point of thinking that we should have a second referendum on EU membership.”

On Wednesday, the Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg criticised the Brexit secretary, David Davis, for proposing a two-year transition that would leave Britain as a “vassal state” and pointed out that it would soon have less influence.

Donald Tusk, the European council president, has said the EU would be open to a British rethink, while a group of former German business leaders has called on Brussels negotiators to offer a compromise deal on immigration that would help persuade the UK to reverse Brexit.

The ICM poll found 32% thought Brexit would have a positive impact on the UK economy, compared with a 38% response when the same question was asked last February.
 
Brexit: Britons favour second referendum by 16-point margin – poll


Guardian/ICM survey finds rising interest in vote on final deal as concerns mount over EU talks

Dan Roberts Brexit policy editor


@RobertsDan

Fri 26 Jan 2018


Voters support the idea of holding a second EU referendum by a 16-point margin, according to one of the largest nationwide opinion polls since the Brexit vote.

The ICM survey, conducted as part of a Guardian reporting project, found 47% of people would favour having a final say on Brexit once the terms of the UK’s departure are known, while 34% oppose reopening the question.

Excluding the roughly one-fifth who do not have a view gives a lead of 58% to 42% for a second referendum, showing rising interest in the idea as concern grows over the direction of recent negotiations.

The increased backing has come from both sides of the debate, with one-quarter of leave voters in favour of having another referendum on the final deal.

Other key findings include:

  • Mounting concern about the impact of leaving, with 43% of voters worried Brexit will have a negative effect on the UK economy and a narrow majority believing it will have a negative impact on the “British way of life”.
  • Signs that Labour voters may be becoming more open to a rethink, with 9% of the party’s leave backers switching to remain, and stronger support for a second referendum in marginal Labour seats than elsewhere.
  • A hardening of the Brexit demographic divide, with young voters 17% more likely than before to support remain and over-65s more determined than ever to leave.
  • A widening of the geographic gulf, with voters in Scotland even more likely to vote remain, but support for leave holding up in Wales and parts of England, such as the Midlands.
The consequences of revisiting the vote are hard to predict, with the country still split largely in two, and signs of both camps hardening their positions.

The poll was underpinned by Guardian journalists reporting from around the country, where they found support for leave hardening in Mansfield, Laboursupporters arguing for a second referendum in Bristol, older voters in Torbay who continue to wholeheartedly back Brexit, and students in Leeds angry and concerned that it is going ahead.

Overall, the ICM poll, carried out in mid-January, confirms a small but persistent shift in recent months towards remain, with 51% of those expressing a view saying they were now in favour of staying in the EU.

But this would be a tighter margin than the 52% leave result of the June 2016 referendum, suggesting a clearer mandate for reversing the decision would only come if growing numbers of leavers reacted negatively to the conclusion of negotiations with the EU.

Pollsters have struggled in recent years to predict correct outcomes, although the 5,075 people polled is a representative sample five times bigger than many similar surveys.

Alex Turk, a senior research executive at ICM Unlimited, said: “On the results of this poll of 5,000, the result of a second EU referendum would be far from a foregone conclusion.”

To the extent that there is a shift towards remain, it is largely due to voters who did not, or could not, participate in the referendum saying they would be more likely to do so next time. Of those who voted, 90% said they would stick to their previous choice, and the numbers of people switching sides largely cancel each other out.

But it is the growing numbers of people in both camps who favour revisiting the question that is likely to have the biggest short-term political impact.

Previously, support for a second referendum had been limited. A smaller Guardian/ICM poll in December found 45% of voters wanted the UK to leave the EU regardless of the outcome of negotiations, with 32% wanting a second referendum and 10% favouring a parliamentary vote.

What would happen if parliament were to reject the Brexit deal remains unclear, but many pro-EU campaigners increasingly argue that a vote could be phrased in such a way as to give Britons a chance to change their minds about the overall departure from the EU if they did not like the terms on offer.

Representatives from several leading pro-EU groups met in London recently to consider ways of working more closely on overturning Brexit, rather than merely campaigning for a less extreme version, a tactic some senior business leaders are privately known to favour.

Support for asking the question is also growing in unlikely quarters, as the weakness of the government’s mandate and negotiating stance becomes clearer. Speaking earlier this month, the ex-Ukip leader Nigel Farage said: “Maybe, just maybe, I’m reaching the point of thinking that we should have a second referendum on EU membership.”

On Wednesday, the Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg criticised the Brexit secretary, David Davis, for proposing a two-year transition that would leave Britain as a “vassal state” and pointed out that it would soon have less influence.

Donald Tusk, the European council president, has said the EU would be open to a British rethink, while a group of former German business leaders has called on Brussels negotiators to offer a compromise deal on immigration that would help persuade the UK to reverse Brexit.

The ICM poll found 32% thought Brexit would have a positive impact on the UK economy, compared with a 38% response when the same question was asked last February.


I don't see how anyone can argue against a second referendum once the terms and details of potentially leaving are known.

Surely even the keenest Leave voter would agree that if the deal negotiated ends up as a terrible.one then maybe - just maybe - the whole idea needs to be looked at again?

If not then a Leave voter is basically saying "I voted to Leave on nothing more than a hunch but I hate what I'm told about the EU so much that I'm prepared to face any scenario in order to leave".
 
A second referendum would make it impossible for the UK to negotiate the best possible deal.

If the EU knew that there would be a second referendum, they would give us the worst deal that they possibly could, in order to manipulate a second vote in their favour. But that's probably what you want....
 
A second referendum would make it impossible for the UK to negotiate the best possible deal.

If the EU knew that there would be a second referendum, they would give us the worst deal that they possibly could, in order to manipulate a second vote in their favour. But that's probably what you want....

So by your logic we should leave regardless? Whatever the circumstances we should exit the EU? Unless I'm mistaken that nuclear scenario was not on any voting form. In fact, if you recall, the Leave campaign promised all kind of wonderful delights and benefits.
 
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