Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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At least when there's another European referendum in 10 years time the demographics of the time will ensure that the pro-European side will win.

Take out a few maveric OAP entrepreneurs who have more money than sense and I dont recall any mainstream businesses or analyst firms advocating to Leave. Add to that the facts that, generally, the Leave vote constituted a massively lower level of formal education and I think its a fair statement that the influence of rabid anti-Europe newspapers like the Mail, Express and the S#n had a massively undemocratic effect on proceedings.

In my opinion the main weight of the Leave vote was two groups - (1) those at the lower end of the working spectrum that were either losing their jobs to unskilled migrants or that they resented the fact those migrants would actually get out of bed for the minimum wage or (2) an older generation that grew up in a post war era where their glorious Britannia had lots its Empire and its place at the top table of global affairs. This electorate persisted in the view that we only had to "take back control" and a magic wand would be waived and Britain's glory would be restored. Couple that with them equally growing up in the decades of the 60s, 70s and 80s when mainstresm TV featured outright racism and xenophobia and you have a pretty determined Leave voter.

Throw in a few blatant lies decked out on campaign buses and, really, the Remain side did well to even get 48%!

This is fine, and I have said it before. There is nothing to stop the younger generation voting to rejoin the EU at some point in the future. If that’s what they want and they win a majority. If I am still alive and the vote is to join then so be it, democracy in action. So let’s at least try and show that the younger generation actually understand democracy and get behind the democratic vote that was taken to leave. You will have your day.......
 
Exactly what I did there, well noticed. Bet you a tenner if it was a post longer than 17 words you'd actually misinterpret whatever you want out of about 3 words you've seen, as it is the agenda.

Just like I told you when I wrote a massive post about a ton of things I find wrong with that and your (might be Joey's, not 100% on this) reply was "well leave won though so it doesn't matter".

Then I did the same thing, more fool me, earlier this week - got the same reply, this time defo not off you.

Honestly, that's how debate works? Should've stuck to "no mate you're dead wrong now shut up" every time anyone posts anything I don't agree with.

And yes, asking you, who uses "no point in discussing this with you anymore" in a demeaning manner, not only in this case, but in many others. Disclaimer: might not be the same words, but words used to the same effect.

But I guess leave won, that's what you wanted, doesn't matter what anyone says as if it doesn't suit your agenda - everything changes in this miraculous unicorn of a 'debate' you have in your head.

DualityNSNO, Yesterday at 11:59 PMReport
#22693Like+ QuoteReply
Ditto
"Bet you a tenner" is wrong... how? Tenner is slang, yeah, just like a lot of words used on this forum and in every day use. Unless you mean to say you read "bet", a word with a shockingly different meaning to "but".

I'll use "I am willing to gamble ten Great British Pounds, good sir", next time then, seeing as this is a panto portraying the 1800s...?

The other one - honestly just click the link - here it is in full if you're missing it somehow http://grammarist.com/grammar/conjunctions-to-start-sentences/ - and read up on how starting a sentence with a conjunction is not wrong.

Imagine basking in the glory of finding a debatable typo that a foreigner has made when your own spelling and grammar in your native language are shocking though.
 
Exactly what I did there, well noticed. Bet you a tenner if it was a post longer than 17 words you'd actually misinterpret whatever you want out of about 3 words you've seen, as it is the agenda.

Just like I told you when I wrote a massive post about a ton of things I find wrong with that and your (might be Joey's, not 100% on this) reply was "well leave won though so it doesn't matter".

Then I did the same thing, more fool me, earlier this week - got the same reply, this time defo not off you.

Honestly, that's how debate works? Should've stuck to "no mate you're dead wrong now shut up" every time anyone posts anything I don't agree with.

And yes, asking you, who uses "no point in discussing this with you anymore" in a demeaning manner, not only in this case, but in many others. Disclaimer: might not be the same words, but words used to the same effect.

But I guess leave won, that's what you wanted, doesn't matter what anyone says as if it doesn't suit your agenda - everything changes in this miraculous unicorn of a 'debate' you have in your head.

DualityNSNO, Yesterday at 11:59 PMReport
#22693Like+ QuoteReply
Ditto

I thought you'd turned over a new leaf there Joe.
 
Why pass a comment on my post after I had recieved this one?
The debate is about the EU - not English grammer Bruce!

How about the capital B in But? You never start a sentence with but!
As they used to say in Lancashire - "if you're a plonker and the cap fits - wear it"! And "don't throw stones in glass houses"!
I did not pick a single word! Practice what you preach, you cyber bully!
Fixed all of that for you, thank me later.

For what it's worth, it's not wrong to start sentences with a conjunction, as you'll find out by opening any book you own in your house, and it's also prominent in very, very old writing (so it wasn't just us millennialslol ) as well as just about any newspaper article. Read up on this, if you want.

Re: your next post - is Zenophobia the fear of Zen Buddhists? It's not got a lot to do with xenophobia at any rate...
 
To avoid any accusations of picking a leftie paper I've gone with the far-right of The Torygraph!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...e-results-compare-to-the-uks-educated-old-an/

View attachment 42798

View attachment 42800
The same anology in the last general election with Labour party doing well under Corbyn via momentum who have been branded left wing Trotsky- Who boosted the younger vote?
Not enough to win, but thankfully harm the present government- I did not vote for anyone in the last election for Labour as I normally do as I do not like a party within a party, and have been branded a tory on here by many including Bruce!
 
The EU are not shafting us, and it's important to remember that. WE are shafting us - the EU is just looking out for it's 27 countries who don't deserve to suffer for our stupidity.

Oh, look, inflation is up at it's highest since 2012 so we now have the highest inflation and lowest growth in the EU. Yayyyy! Gooooooo Brexit!

You are indeed correct, except WE should really mean 'those who voted leave and threw us all under the bus in the process'.

It's a shame we all have to suffer for their stupidity, but that's democracy.
 
No need to worry, David Davis has the intent to have this leaving the EU malarky covered.


Brexit
David Davis scrambles to salvage EU relations after 'damaging trust'
Brexit secretary moves to persuade Guy Verhofstadt that UK can be trusted after claiming deal was just ‘statement of intent’




David Davis on the BBC’s Andrew Marr show at the weekend when he made the comments about the UK’s agreement with the EU. Photograph: Handout/Getty Images
Daniel Boffey in Brussels

Tuesday 12 December 2017 11.34 GMTLast modified on Tuesday 12 December 2017 16.41 GMT

David Davis has scrambled to salvage relations with Brussels after he was accused of damaging trust in the Brexit talks by making inflammatory comments over the status of Britain’s promises.

The Brexit secretary engaged in urgent telephone diplomacy on Tuesday in an attempt to persuade Guy Verhofstadt, the European parliament’s Brexitcoordinator, that the UK government’s word could be depended upon.

Brussels has been deeply irritated by Davis’s claim over the weekend that the UK’s concessions in an agreement struck last week with the EU to move talks on were merely a statement of intent without legal backing.

In an unusual move, the European parliament’s main parties announced on Tuesday morning that they had drawn up an amendment on their Brexit resolution, on which MEPs will vote on Wednesday, personally condemning the Brexit secretary for damaging trust.

Verhofstadt, a former Belgian prime minister, further claimed in a press conference in Strasbourg that the Brexit secretary’s comments were “unacceptable” and would provoke a wider hardening of the EU’s positions, including in the member states’ guidelines for the future relationship, to be signed off by leaders on Friday.

https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/940540781684719616
Guy Verhofstadt

✔@guyverhofstadt


After @DavidDavisMP’s unacceptable remarks, it’s time the UK government restores trust. These amendements will further toughen up our resolution.

Davis later made public details of a conversation on Tuesday afternoon with Verhofstadt, who is leading the steering group of the European parliament, which will have a veto on any future withdrawal agreement.

The British cabinet minister tweeted: “Pleasure, as ever, to speak to my friend [Guy Verhofstadt] we both agreed on the importance of the joint report. Let’s work together to get it converted into legal text as soon as possible.”

An EU official later said that the guidelines for talks on future relations that had been drafted were already “minister Davis-proofed”, and it was clear what the consequences were if commitments were “not respected”.

The circulated draft includes the demand that “negotiations in the second phase can only progress as long as all commitments undertaken during the first phase are respected in full and translated faithfully in legal terms as quickly as possible”.

The latest draft also makes clear that talks about a future relationship will only start after an EU leaders’ summit in March, and that the leaders will make a “last call” on Friday to the British cabinet to offer a clear vision of the future.

An EU official said: “We expect more clarity on the end state, on the end objective … Until now it is no single market, no customs union but a bespoke partnership. If no new elements will come from London then we will work on that basis. The basis of no customs union, single market.”

The row over Davis’s comments could not have come at a more sensitive time, with EU ministers and the European commission’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, discussing their statement in Brussels ahead of this week’s summit.

Verhofstadt told reporters: “As someone said, it’s an own goal. It is clear that the European council will be more strict now … I have seen a hardening of the position of the council and there will be a hardening of the position of the parliament.”

Under the proposed amendments to the parliament’s resolution, MEPs will claim that in calling the outcome of phase one of the negotiations a mere statement of intent, Davis’s intervention threatened “to undermine the good faith that has been built during the negotiations”.

Verhofstadt said: “We will introduce amendments concerning the – for us – unacceptable description by David Davis of this agreement, saying it was merely a statement of intent rather than a legally enforceable text. And in our opinion that is really undermining the trust that is necessary in such negotiations.”

Separately, the German government chided Theresa May for giving Britons a different version of events from those she agreed in Brussels at a breakthrough meeting on negotiation talks last Friday.

The Europe minister Michael Roth of the Social Democrats told German media he was “somewhat taken aback” that the language May used in Brussels “differed somewhat” to what she had since said in London, referring in particular to May’s suggestion on Monday that Britain would only pay the final bill to the EU once a trade agreement had been reached.

Davis made his comments on Sunday in response to reports that the British government had told some hardline Brexiters that assurances that Northern Ireland would maintain “full alignment” with EU law in future were meaningless.

The Brexit secretary explained that the joint agreement struck with the European commission on the Irish border, citizens’ rights and the financial settlement, was “more a statement of intent than it was a legally enforceable thing”.

The comments caused consternation in Dublin and prompted the European commission to remind the prime minister in a statement that she had “shaken hands” on a “gentlemen’s agreement” last Friday.

Davis subsequently told LBC radio on Monday that his comments had been misinterpreted and twisted.

“I said this was a statement of intent, which was much more than just legally enforceable,” he said. “Of course it’s legally enforceable under the withdrawal agreement, but even if that didn’t happen for some reason, if something went wrong, we would still be seeking to provide a frictionless, invisible border with Ireland.”

The Liberal Democrats’ Brexit spokesman, Tom Brake, said: “David Davis has endangered the entire divorce agreement because he couldn’t resist playing to the Brexit gallery and because the cabinet can’t even agree among itself what kind of Brexit it wants.

“The sheer incompetence and chaos coming from the government is unprecedented in my lifetime. Every time David Davis speaks, the Brexit divorce grows worse for Britain.”

The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and one minute Davis agrees something to only then contradict himself. Davis is the arse end of the pantomime horse.
 
No need to worry, David Davis has the intent to have this leaving the EU malarky covered.


Brexit
David Davis scrambles to salvage EU relations after 'damaging trust'
Brexit secretary moves to persuade Guy Verhofstadt that UK can be trusted after claiming deal was just ‘statement of intent’




David Davis on the BBC’s Andrew Marr show at the weekend when he made the comments about the UK’s agreement with the EU. Photograph: Handout/Getty Images
Daniel Boffey in Brussels

Tuesday 12 December 2017 11.34 GMTLast modified on Tuesday 12 December 2017 16.41 GMT

David Davis has scrambled to salvage relations with Brussels after he was accused of damaging trust in the Brexit talks by making inflammatory comments over the status of Britain’s promises.

The Brexit secretary engaged in urgent telephone diplomacy on Tuesday in an attempt to persuade Guy Verhofstadt, the European parliament’s Brexitcoordinator, that the UK government’s word could be depended upon.

Brussels has been deeply irritated by Davis’s claim over the weekend that the UK’s concessions in an agreement struck last week with the EU to move talks on were merely a statement of intent without legal backing.

In an unusual move, the European parliament’s main parties announced on Tuesday morning that they had drawn up an amendment on their Brexit resolution, on which MEPs will vote on Wednesday, personally condemning the Brexit secretary for damaging trust.

Verhofstadt, a former Belgian prime minister, further claimed in a press conference in Strasbourg that the Brexit secretary’s comments were “unacceptable” and would provoke a wider hardening of the EU’s positions, including in the member states’ guidelines for the future relationship, to be signed off by leaders on Friday.

Guy Verhofstadt

✔@guyverhofstadt


After @DavidDavisMP’s unacceptable remarks, it’s time the UK government restores trust. These amendements will further toughen up our resolution.

Davis later made public details of a conversation on Tuesday afternoon with Verhofstadt, who is leading the steering group of the European parliament, which will have a veto on any future withdrawal agreement.

The British cabinet minister tweeted: “Pleasure, as ever, to speak to my friend [Guy Verhofstadt] we both agreed on the importance of the joint report. Let’s work together to get it converted into legal text as soon as possible.”

An EU official later said that the guidelines for talks on future relations that had been drafted were already “minister Davis-proofed”, and it was clear what the consequences were if commitments were “not respected”.

The circulated draft includes the demand that “negotiations in the second phase can only progress as long as all commitments undertaken during the first phase are respected in full and translated faithfully in legal terms as quickly as possible”.

The latest draft also makes clear that talks about a future relationship will only start after an EU leaders’ summit in March, and that the leaders will make a “last call” on Friday to the British cabinet to offer a clear vision of the future.

An EU official said: “We expect more clarity on the end state, on the end objective … Until now it is no single market, no customs union but a bespoke partnership. If no new elements will come from London then we will work on that basis. The basis of no customs union, single market.”

The row over Davis’s comments could not have come at a more sensitive time, with EU ministers and the European commission’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, discussing their statement in Brussels ahead of this week’s summit.

Verhofstadt told reporters: “As someone said, it’s an own goal. It is clear that the European council will be more strict now … I have seen a hardening of the position of the council and there will be a hardening of the position of the parliament.”

Under the proposed amendments to the parliament’s resolution, MEPs will claim that in calling the outcome of phase one of the negotiations a mere statement of intent, Davis’s intervention threatened “to undermine the good faith that has been built during the negotiations”.

Verhofstadt said: “We will introduce amendments concerning the – for us – unacceptable description by David Davis of this agreement, saying it was merely a statement of intent rather than a legally enforceable text. And in our opinion that is really undermining the trust that is necessary in such negotiations.”

Separately, the German government chided Theresa May for giving Britons a different version of events from those she agreed in Brussels at a breakthrough meeting on negotiation talks last Friday.

The Europe minister Michael Roth of the Social Democrats told German media he was “somewhat taken aback” that the language May used in Brussels “differed somewhat” to what she had since said in London, referring in particular to May’s suggestion on Monday that Britain would only pay the final bill to the EU once a trade agreement had been reached.

Davis made his comments on Sunday in response to reports that the British government had told some hardline Brexiters that assurances that Northern Ireland would maintain “full alignment” with EU law in future were meaningless.

The Brexit secretary explained that the joint agreement struck with the European commission on the Irish border, citizens’ rights and the financial settlement, was “more a statement of intent than it was a legally enforceable thing”.

The comments caused consternation in Dublin and prompted the European commission to remind the prime minister in a statement that she had “shaken hands” on a “gentlemen’s agreement” last Friday.

Davis subsequently told LBC radio on Monday that his comments had been misinterpreted and twisted.

“I said this was a statement of intent, which was much more than just legally enforceable,” he said. “Of course it’s legally enforceable under the withdrawal agreement, but even if that didn’t happen for some reason, if something went wrong, we would still be seeking to provide a frictionless, invisible border with Ireland.”

The Liberal Democrats’ Brexit spokesman, Tom Brake, said: “David Davis has endangered the entire divorce agreement because he couldn’t resist playing to the Brexit gallery and because the cabinet can’t even agree among itself what kind of Brexit it wants.

“The sheer incompetence and chaos coming from the government is unprecedented in my lifetime. Every time David Davis speaks, the Brexit divorce grows worse for Britain.”

The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, and one minute Davis agrees something to only then contradict himself. Davis is the arse end of the pantomime horse.
Davis, is, was and always will be, an unprofessional, unprepared, wing it merchant.
 
This is fine, and I have said it before. There is nothing to stop the younger generation voting to rejoin the EU at some point in the future. If that’s what they want and they win a majority. If I am still alive and the vote is to join then so be it, democracy in action. So let’s at least try and show that the younger generation actually understand democracy and get behind the democratic vote that was taken to leave. You will have your day.......

Would you accept if there was a second referendum before 2019 that overturned Brexit?
 
Would you accept if there was a second referendum before 2019 that overturned Brexit?

I think the very fact that Pete can envision another one in ten years is quite baffling to be honest. There is not a person alive that has actually done these things that believes a trade deal will be concluded in less than 5 years. Business people have said repeatedly that they need consistency and stability (strong and stable you could say), yet Pete would be happy to put them through the turmult of leaving the EU, only to then potentially reverse it just as they're settling into the new way of life. Bonkers. For better or worse, if we go through with this then it needs to be long-term.
 
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