Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Tubey]

I posted this in the Trump thread, but it’s worth putting in here. An article from the guardian......

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/29/vortex-online-political-debate-arguments-trump-brexit

The problem is that what he's suggesting isn't a solution. It's basically saying "shut up and accept what's going on because moaning about it only makes it worse."

It's spot on in that an effort to understand 'the other side' is almost a lost art of debate these days - people pigeon hole people into nice little labels because it's easier to call anyone and everyone who voted leave/remain a 'Brexiteer' or 'Remoaner', because social media has opened up a whole barrel of intellectual laziness in recent years. However, that doesn't mean you still shouldn't make your point forcefully if you believe it - as long as you've actually looked at the situation properly and not just noticed one update on Facebook and went full barrels without further research, which is unfortunately the norm these days.

But yes, as someone who was immediately labelled 'Tory' because I voted against Jeremy Corbyn for a myriad of reasons (with ironically being a fan of the Conservatives not even close to being one of them), I do fully understand that article. But it really isn't a solution.

 

[Old Blue 2]

nor do you elect Mr Juncker. They are not 'political leaders' as you call them, but mandarins. They don't decide anything on their own, but rather turn what is decided in the other institutions into legislation.

Well, for someone who has not been elected, that gobeen Juncker has a lot to say for himself... And into the bargain, appear to direct/speak for EU policy.

Perhaps you, and others, are quite happy with that? Yes...??? If so, then I do call into question the intelligence of some on here (yourself included - since you have denigrated the intelligence of certain parts of the UK community in the past with your posts because they voted leave/are in leave-voting areas/communities [Lincolnshire being one recent, prime, example]).

 

[peteblue]

The problem is that what he's suggesting isn't a solution. It's basically saying "shut up and accept what's going on because moaning about it only makes it worse."

It's spot on in that an effort to understand 'the other side' is almost a lost art of debate these days - people pigeon hole people into nice little labels because it's easier to call anyone and everyone who voted leave/remain a 'Brexiteer' or 'Remoaner', because social media has opened up a whole barrel of intellectual laziness in recent years. However, that doesn't mean you still shouldn't make your point forcefully if you believe it - as long as you've actually looked at the situation properly and not just noticed one update on Facebook and went full barrels without further research, which is unfortunately the norm these days.

But yes, as someone who was immediately labelled 'Tory' because I voted against Jeremy Corbyn for a myriad of reasons (with ironically being a fan of the Conservatives not even close to being one of them), I do fully understand that article. But it really isn't a solution.

There are no real solutions to most human interaction, I thought the article useful as a ‘time out’, and an interesting piece in its own right......

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Well, for someone who has not been elected, that gobeen Juncker has a lot to say for himself... And into the bargain, appear to direct/speak for EU policy.

Perhaps you, and others, are quite happy with that? Yes...??? If so, then I do call into question the intelligence of some on here (yourself included - since you have denigrated the intelligence of certain parts of the UK community in the past with your posts because they voted leave/are in leave-voting areas/communities [Lincolnshire being one recent, prime, example]).

I would say that it's a pretty silly reason to leave the EU, just because you dislike one person.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Well, for someone who has not been elected, that gobeen Juncker has a lot to say for himself... And into the bargain, appear to direct/speak for EU policy.

Perhaps you, and others, are quite happy with that? Yes...??? If so, then I do call into question the intelligence of some on here (yourself included - since you have denigrated the intelligence of certain parts of the UK community in the past with your posts because they voted leave/are in leave-voting areas/communities [Lincolnshire being one recent, prime, example]).

Incidentally, you must feel proud that 100,000 fewer Europeans want to live and work in the UK since the vote? These aren't people that we've decided we don't want, but who have decided they don't want us. Good job.

 

[Old Blue 2]

I would say that it's a pretty silly reason to leave the EU, just because you dislike one person.

Come on, Bruce, Juncker was a singular example from earlier recent posts. Do you think you can win the argument with the above? Really?

And do you think that I (read perhaps 'we') think the only agressive, smart-ass, EU bod is Juncker? Move on to at least to Tusk and Verhofstaedt (sp) as well for starters, and the chief negotiator also. Arrogant sods, the lot of them! About as diplomatic as last week's turd!

 

[Old Blue 2]

Incidentally, you must feel proud that 100,000 fewer Europeans want to live and work in the UK since the vote? These aren't people that we've decided we don't want, but who have decided they don't want us. Good job.

Sarcasm doesn't become you, I thought you were better than that. They can make their own choices. If people decide not to come here, so be it, that is their choice. Don't take me to task about that. You hang you hat on such trivialities? You're sounding desperate, Bruce...

 

[roydo]

Come on, Bruce, Juncker was a singular example from earlier recent posts. Do you think you can win the argument with the above? Really?

Dont think anyone will concede an inch in this thread mate. Folk who voted Out look with bemusement at us who voted In, and the feeling is very much reciprocated I would imagine.

Either way, we have all put the UK's future in the hands of politicians and civil servants. Plus Ce Change.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Dont think anyone will concede an inch in this thread mate. Folk who voted Out look with bemusement at us who voted In, and the feeling is very much reciprocated I would imagine.

Either way, we have all put the UK's future in the hands of politicians and civil servants. Plus Ce Change.

Agree with the above, roydo. We have always had to put our future in the hands of Politicians, and the civil servants who carry out the policies. And as I have quoted from the band The Who before: Here's the new boss, same as the old boss. Plus ca change, rien ne change - you're not kidding...

 

[roydo]

Agree with the above, roydo. We have always had to put our future in the hands of Politicians, and the civil servants who carry out the policies. And as I have quoted from the band The Who before: Here's the new boss, same as the old boss. Plus ca change, rien ne change - you're not kidding...

Wont get fooled again. Some chance.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Sarcasm doesn't become you, I thought you were better than that. They can make their own choices. If people decide not to come here, so be it, that is their choice. Don't take me to task about that. You hang you hat on such trivialities? You're sounding desperate, Bruce...

100,000 saying that the UK is not for them is trivial?

 

[roydo]

100,000 saying that the UK is not for them is trivial?

Reckon they have heard their parcels are always late. Cant blame them

 

[Old Blue 2]

100,000 saying that the UK is not for them is trivial?

So do we lose sleep over that, Bruce?

Come on, if you are going to enter into a discussion/debate, then please advance sensible reasonable premises...

 

[SteveSC]

So do we lose sleep over that, Bruce?

Come on, if you are going to enter into a discussion/debate, then please advance sensible reasonable premises...

I know he doesn't need any one to help him but do you always have to try your best to belittle someones opinion? You and Pete seem to do your best to refute anyone point by dismissing it.

If even 100 of that 100,000 were business owners and they decided to up sticks then you are looking at job losses. Not forgetting that if they have the ability to leave then its save to assume they are professionals who probably moved there because of a good well paying job so well there goes their taxes and their spending.

Its also safe to assume that if they feel that way other professionals like them who were considering moving because of a company and or job may rethink their decision.

Not forgetting that it makes the companies task at finding certain people for certain roles more difficult to fill. Probably why they may have hired non British people to begin with.

There's a knock on affect here you know.

Don't forget the many Irish and French people that commute easily to the UK weekly for work. Make it tougher for them they then make a tough decision to stay in their homeland or go somewhere else.

Also some companies have their base in the UK and hire people to work in satellite offices but also from time to time need them to work in Britain especially in the technology sector. I know this because i worked for two of them. Make it tougher for them to hire EU citizens then they have to rethink their strategy.

Unless of course the UK is going to pump more money into school before college level to make every kid proficient in the tech sector.

Ask yourselves why there are so many EU workers not of British descent to begin with. Its possible there is a skills shortage.

This happened in Ireland too and wasn't helped by the then governments dragging their heels on fixing the education system to accommodate teaching modern methods and skills. Our country saw an influx of immigrants from the EU then. As did Britain.

 

[Old Blue 2]

I know he doesn't need any one to help him but do you always have to try your best to belittle someones opinion? You and Pete seem to do your best to refute anyone point by dismissing it.

Bruce is big enough to stand up for himself.

And if he posts as he did, then he will expect to get replies to it.

I don't belittle him, I ask him to post reasonable premises to support his point of view.

Look, Bruce is a past master at the wind-up. I know that, and he knows I do (we have had great exchanges of PMs, which you are not party to), so it is all good banter, albeit dressed up in serious posts.

If you want to interfere, fine, but don't get hold of the wrong end of the stick most of the time...