Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/11/...udDev&referer=https://m.facebook.com/home.php

No One Knows What Britain Is Anymore

BRUSSELS — Many Britons see their country as a brave galleon, banners waving, cannons firing, trumpets blaring. That is how the country’s voluble foreign secretary, Boris Johnson, likes to describe it.

But Britain is now but a modest-size ship on the global ocean. Having voted to leave the European Union, it is unmoored, heading to nowhere, while on deck, fire has broken out and the captain — poor Theresa May — is lashed to the mast, without the authority to decide whether to turn to port or to starboard, let alone do what one imagines she knows would be best, which is to turn around and head back to shore.

I’ve lived and worked for nine years in Britain, first during the Thatcher years and then again for the last four politically chaotic ones. While much poorer in the 1980s, Britain mattered internationally. Now, with Brexit, it seems to be embracing an introverted irrelevance.

The ambitious Mr. Johnson was crucial to the victory of Brexit in the June 2016 referendum. But for many, the blusterings of Boris have lost their charm. The “great ship” he loves to cite is a nationalist fantasy, a remnant of Britain’s persistent post-imperial confusion about its proper place in the world, hanging on to expensive symbols like a nuclear deterrent while its once glorious navy is often incapable of patrolling its own coastline.

Britain — renowned for its pragmatism, its common sense, its political stability and its unabashed devotion to small business (“a nation of shopkeepers”) — has become nearly unrecognizable to its European allies.

“People need to look again at Britain,” said Daniel Brössler, a correspondent for the German daily Süddeutsche Zeitung. “It’s no longer the country they understood it to be their whole lives.”

The divorce negotiations with the European Union start another round this week, but they are not going well, to say the least. The most visible fight is over the cost of the divorce. But other difficult and essentially political issues about the authority of the European Court of Justice and a customs border with Ireland must also be clarified before the other 27 member states agree to move on to the next stage, Britain’s future relationship with the bloc. That decision next month once seemed pro forma, but no longer, with some even predicting a breakdown in the talks.

Mrs. May’s Conservative government is now so split that some Brexit supporters are calling on her to simply quit the bloc with no deal at all — probably the worst alternative for the country, but just the kind of populist, tub-thumping gesture favored by the Brexit elite and the right-wing tabloids.

Meanwhile, with the Conservative government so riven and rudderless, the old hard lefty Jeremy Corbyn is leading the opposition Labour Party back into an equally fantastical socialist past.

Britain is undergoing a full-blown identity crisis. It is a “hollowed-out country,” “ill at ease with itself,” “deeply provincial,” engaged in a “controlled suicide,” say puzzled experts. And these are Britain’s friends.

“The sense in the rest of Europe is bewilderment; how much worse can it get?” said Tomas Valasek, a former Slovak diplomat who lived in Britain for many years and now directs Carnegie Europe, a Brussels-based research institution. “After Brexit, no one is trying to help now. They’ve given up. Nobody on the Continent really cares that much about Britain anymore. Even worse, people feel the country will fall into the hands of Jeremy Corbyn and that will do more damage than Brexit itself.”

More chilling, perhaps, is the impact on countries less rooted than Britain once appeared to be. “Britain is an example for all of us, as a longstanding democracy, with centuries of the rule of law and traditional institutions,” said Guntram Wolff, a German economist who runs the Bruegel research institution here. “And if such a country has such difficulties, most of us wonder how our own countries would handle such political upheaval — whether we, too, are so vulnerable.”

Some make the comparison to that other great Anglo-Saxon country, the United States, under President Trump, who saw Brexit as a harbinger of his own election. But however politically divided the United States seems now, Europeans have never considered it a touchstone of stability the way they have Britain.

Jan Techau, a German who has traveled extensively in England and ran Carnegie Europe, sees Britain as a tragedy. The European country considered the most outward-looking and globalized is fractured by the backlash against the very model that made Britain strong. “It’s very sad, but Brexit is a controlled suicide,” he said.

There are many who see Britain as having suffered a sudden nervous breakdown, said Simon Tilford, an economist and deputy director of the Center for European Reform. But he believes that Britain’s political culture and economic stability have been eroding for some time, hidden by the longstanding willingness of others to give it the benefit of the doubt as a pragmatic democracy with a strong civil society and civil service.

He too blames the Conservatives and the right-wing tabloids that support them for much of the erosion. “The readiness of the political right in particular to lie and peddle obvious untruths, to place their party politics and party unity over and above the national interest, has been going on for a long time,” he said. “The harrumphing nationalism masks a country ill at ease with itself.”

Rather than a vote for a global Britain and economic liberalism, Mr. Tilford said, Brexit was a vote for protectionism, and its political system now “is deeply provincial and introverted at a time when Britain is supposed to be heading out into the world.”

The divisions in the society — over Brexit, over politics — are both a function and a result of Britain’s confusion about its identity and global importance. The 19th-century myth of Britain as the “workshop of the world,” a doughty Protestant nation surrounded by Catholics with an empire on which the sun never set, confronted a post-World War II reality, when a lot of these tales stopped being true, suggests Mark Leonard, director of the European Council on Foreign Relations.

Britain became a service economy, the empire disappeared and people stopped identifying with the Church of England. Then Margaret Thatcher arrived, and with her, Mr. Leonard said, “there was a last gasp of this old identity — an ethnic, exclusively white and backward-looking version of Englishness.”

However successful, it also excluded an increasingly large number of Britons — black, Asian and Muslim — who felt disenfranchised from “the national story.” Tony Blair and New Labour moved toward more inclusiveness and cosmopolitanism and openness to Europe, too.

But those validated by the old identity then felt like strangers in their own land, Mr. Leonard said. “Their revenge was Brexit.”

Confused and divided, Britain no longer has an agreed-upon national narrative, said Charles Grant, director of the Center for European Reform. “In the 2012 Olympics we had one,” he said. “Global Britain, open Britain, generous Britain.” But now there is a competition between that narrative and the nativist one.

Mr. Grant, like others who have spent their careers watching British and European politics, predicts rough seas for Britain as it casts off nearly 45 years of intimate trade and legal ties with those annoying Europeans.

“Everywhere I go,” he said, “people are asking me, ‘What’s wrong with your country?’ ”
 
It seems that many remainers, still retain a view that the silly uneducated leave voters are somehow inferior to the obviously far more intelligent and educated remain voter. This is insinuated and propagated, ad nauseam, by those who would wish to lead us back into the arms of the EU. It’s about time that those who believe in their own superiority, brought to bear their undoubted talents and wisdom and actively engaged in the process of leaving the EU as opposed to merely throwing stones....

This isn't, of course, to say that all are one way or another, but all analyses of the voters to date suggest that is the case. Not that they're uneducated, but that they are less so. I wouldn't suggest for one minute that these analyses are perfect, or indeed that they're not flawed, but as we speak they are probably as good as we've got in terms of understanding who voted and why. The alternative position is one you appear to adopt, in the sense that you don't have any insights into the kind of people who voted to leave, and use that lack of insight to assume your own opinion of them must be true (or that they all reflect yourself).

It isn't the prerogative of those who think Brexit is a terrible idea to make this work, it's the responsibility of those who voted to leave to do so.
 
You must speak to the same people as Chris Grayling. Is there currently absolutely no way for those people to build a business? As for your last comment, I'm not sure that's what I'm doing whatsoever. Indeed, it has largely been the preserve of Brexiters to paint a simplistic version of the world in order to sell this whole thing. Britain will be better off out, we will take back control, all of those who didn't benefit from globalisation will be better off, Europe will bow to us because they sell more to us than we to them, we will have lots of spare money for the NHS, migration will be down to tens of thousands, and so on
This isn't, of course, to say that all are one way or another, but all analyses of the voters to date suggest that is the case. Not that they're uneducated, but that they are less so. I wouldn't suggest for one minute that these analyses are perfect, or indeed that they're not flawed, but as we speak they are probably as good as we've got in terms of understanding who voted and why. The alternative position is one you appear to adopt, in the sense that you don't have any insights into the kind of people who voted to leave, and use that lack of insight to assume your own opinion of them must be true (or that they all reflect yourself).

It isn't the prerogative of those who think Brexit is a terrible idea to make this work, it's the responsibility of those who voted to leave to do so.

And yet, as a silly leaver, I’d put my qualifications and experience against any remainer to prove that we are not all stupid. In respect of those who voted Remain, if they are so all seeing and intelligent, it is their responsibility to respect the vote (otherwise democracy is dead), and get behind and support the path the country has chosen. Otherwise we have anarchy......
 
I've never once said you are stupid Pete, nor indeed that leave voters are stupid. I've said that the analyses of the vote to date suggest that leave voters on average are less qualified than remain voters. I'm sure with your experience you know that averages can contain readings from all over the spectrum. If you have analyses that show how leave voters or leave voting areas are going to drive the country forward though I'm all ears. I've said before, the vast majority of new patents, startups and GDP come from areas that voted to remain so it's difficult to square this reality with your notion that leave voters are some heroic adventurers who we can rely on to chart the country into newfound success and glory. I would love to know just on what you base that claim.
 
so it's difficult to square this reality with your notion that leave voters are some heroic adventurers who we can rely on to chart the country into newfound success and glory. I would love to know just on what you base that claim.

Save you the trouble.

Actually, I wont, had enough grief this weekend all ready.

But we both know the answer.
 
I've never once said you are stupid Pete, nor indeed that leave voters are stupid. I've said that the analyses of the vote to date suggest that leave voters on average are less qualified than remain voters. I'm sure with your experience you know that averages can contain readings from all over the spectrum. If you have analyses that show how leave voters or leave voting areas are going to drive the country forward though I'm all ears. I've said before, the vast majority of new patents, startups and GDP come from areas that voted to remain so it's difficult to square this reality with your notion that leave voters are some heroic adventurers who we can rely on to chart the country into newfound success and glory. I would love to know just on what you base that claim.

Of course startups come from areas that voted Remain, it’s in their interest. Any analysis of who voted Remain shows those who wish things to continue as is, bankers and multinationals, politicians who are seeking further employment within the EU, and those who believe they may lose something voted Remain. Those who have, voted to keep, those who haven’t voted to change......many like me, just knew it was the right thing to do.......
 
Of course startups come from areas that voted Remain, it’s in their interest. Any analysis of who voted Remain shows those who wish things to continue as is, bankers and multinationals, politicians who are seeking further employment within the EU, and those who believe they may lose something voted Remain. Those who have, voted to keep, those who haven’t voted to change......many like me, just knew it was the right thing to do.......

You may well be right Pete. I struggle to believe that many Leavers voted with the rational considered. intelligent and experienced viewpoint you did though.

That said, same could be said of the other side I guess.

Its a mess, not of my making.
 
Of course startups come from areas that voted Remain, it’s in their interest. Any analysis of who voted Remain shows those who wish things to continue as is, bankers and multinationals, politicians who are seeking further employment within the EU, and those who believe they may lose something voted Remain. Those who have, voted to keep, those who haven’t voted to change......many like me, just knew it was the right thing to do.......

Ok, so I'll ask again, given what you've written above, on what do you base your confidence that those leave voters will be the ones that will propel us to new heights? You've said a number of times that they're the brave and visionary ones. If it helps, these are the biggest leave voting towns.

Boston
East Lindsey
Lincoln
South Holland
South Kesteven
North Kesteven
West Lindsey
 
Ok, so I'll ask again, given what you've written above, on what do you base your confidence that those leave voters will be the ones that will propel us to new heights? You've said a number of times that they're the brave and visionary ones. If it helps, these are the biggest leave voting towns.

Boston
East Lindsey
Lincoln
South Holland
South Kesteven
North Kesteven
West Lindsey

I may well be geographically well off beam. But that list screams "need immigrant crop pickers" to me.
 
Ok, so I'll ask again, given what you've written above, on what do you base your confidence that those leave voters will be the ones that will propel us to new heights? You've said a number of times that they're the brave and visionary ones. If it helps, these are the biggest leave voting towns.

Boston
East Lindsey
Lincoln
South Holland
South Kesteven
North Kesteven
West Lindsey

These towns and areas may well provide tomorrow’s politicians and businesspeople who are capable of driving us forward. However we also have people from Remain areas who believe in the U.K. and indeed voted leave who will steer us through the opportunities presented. I wouldn’t paint anyone or any area as a pro or anti because even some of those politicians who today are remainers will immediately swap colours if it suits them.....
 
Of course startups come from areas that voted Remain, it’s in their interest. Any analysis of who voted Remain shows those who wish things to continue as is, bankers and multinationals, politicians who are seeking further employment within the EU, and those who believe they may lose something voted Remain. Those who have, voted to keep, those who haven’t voted to change......many like me, just knew it was the right thing to do.......
Maybe we could change without destroying the good stuff. Perhaps we could invest in skilling this country to be capable of more than pushing money around or waiting on tables. Leaving the EU is a right wing coup and if you thought the working class were having a bad time you have seen nothing yet. Johnson and Farage should be shot for treason. Lying scum. Once the government is forced to publish its work on the impact of Brexit perhaps we could vote on something approaching the truth.
 
Ok, so I'll ask again, given what you've written above, on what do you base your confidence that those leave voters will be the ones that will propel us to new heights? You've said a number of times that they're the brave and visionary ones. If it helps, these are the biggest leave voting towns.

Boston
East Lindsey
Lincoln
South Holland
South Kesteven
North Kesteven
West Lindsey


It really is disingenuous of you, Bruce, to start quoting places the way you have done above. It smacks of you insinuating that they are somehow inferior to you and others of your kind (those who mix in higher circles, which you do from what you have previously posted).

Remember, all those posts of yours (and others) regarding the views of people in responsible positions somewhere near the top of the totem pole does not equate to those views being correct. Once again I will say, look at how much Carney has made an idiot of himself in the last 17 months (I would put it in far stronger tersm but I would get a warning or a ban), and Osbourne to boot in the immediate aftermath of the Referendum.

So somehow, just somehow, the people in those towns can equally be clear thinkers as the likes of yourself and other suits...
 
Maybe we could change without destroying the good stuff. Perhaps we could invest in skilling this country to be capable of more than pushing money around or waiting on tables. Leaving the EU is a right wing coup and if you thought the working class were having a bad time you have seen nothing yet. Johnson and Farage should be shot for treason. Lying scum. Once the government is forced to publish its work on the impact of Brexit perhaps we could vote on something approaching the truth.

Well I'm certainly not right-wing.

'Lying scum'. Well you better line up a whole lot of Remain campaigners for shooting as well, starting with Cameron & Osbourne!

No one will know the impact of Brexit until several years down the road after the exit date in 2019.

Nevertheless, yours is an entertaining Remain post...
 
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