Current Affairs EU In or Out
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roydo
in memoriam - 1965-2024
tommytowne
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I voted to leave but I am astounded, naively maybe, at the hostility from the member states towards us. I appreciate they would not want to see us leave on too favourable terms, but to me it feels like pure vindictiveness on their parts.
I would like to think I made a considered conclusion prior to voting, but when weighing up the pros and cons, for the life of me I didn't read, or hear, or see on TV scenarios that we are now seeing. I know hindsight is wonderful but being honest I am certain if another vote was to take place, the Remains would prevail.
Old Blue 2
Player Valuation: £40m
Perhaps I didn't explain/express myself properly, roydo.
In leaving, we want the best possible deal for the UK. In practise, the other side want the best possible deal for them. Part of their thinking is to extract as much money from us as possible.
With regard to international negotiations/machinations, that is necessarily the remit of those in power. The ordinary joe in the street has no role to play in that part of the process. That is what I am saying.
Of course, the PM of the day will take those terms to the Commons, and there may indeed be a vote on the terms agreed at that time between the negotiators of both sides. Those terms may be agreed, or may be referenced back to our negotiating side as they are deemed to be unacceptable. That, again, is for those in higher authority to deal with.
I don't understand what you find quite strange. The referendum vote was for the populace of the UK; the implementation is for those in the higher strata of the UK to then carry forward to implementation.
Old Blue 2
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Given what you say, and what has been continually seen, re the vindictiveness of member states towards us, I rather think the vote to leave would be greater than before...
Old Blue 2
Player Valuation: £40m
Bad cough there, roydo.
I have just the remedy:
'Leave patent cough medicine'
Cures all ills!
roydo
in memoriam - 1965-2024
Thats what I find strange. The people have spoken and said Leave, but you will accept whatever terms the negotiators arrive at.
I have no idea why you voted leave, but for sake of argument, it was free movement of people. So, to labour the point, if the final Brexit deal kept an open border with the EU, you would be ok with that? Or would you want a say in it being implemented?
DanEFC92
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roydo
in memoriam - 1965-2024
Bad cough there, roydo.
I have just the remedy:
'Leave patent cough medicine'
Cures all ills!
Will let you know in about 5 years time. Till then, I will stick to my knitting.
Old Blue 2
Player Valuation: £40m
You appear to be going round in circles, and not reading my posts. No point continuing this present discussion, roydo, I'm not even going to respond to your second paragraph, as you make no attempt to respond to the points I make...
tommytowne
Player Valuation: £50m
My resolve has certainly hardened having seen the antics of Junkers and Co.
We're going to get a good snottering though.
roydo
in memoriam - 1965-2024
Think its the other way round.
I asked a specific question, you responded by saying that the powers and levers of Government/civil service will implement the decision the people voted for, I asked you if you would be happy with whatever outcome they arrived at.
I know you were in the civil service, so obvs know more about that than me, but the central question is actually quite easy. If you cant answer that simple question, then I agree, it aint worth debating.
Sad really, and a reflection on the leave side really.
Old Blue 2
Player Valuation: £40m
We have no say in that, roydo, that's my point. See the numbered points below.
Yes I was in the civil service, and yes, I worked on secondment to Headquarters at various times, so I did see how things moved at a higher level than the ordinary worker (I'm making no special claim to knowledge here, only saying that I saw the workings of several major projects, some of which came to fruition, others that did not - one major one of which I could never disclose because of the sensitivity surrounding the final decision).
I have been at pains here to explain the separation of functions between:
1. The mass of the people voting;
2. The decision of the vote then being taken forward by the Government of the day;
3. The process of taking the decision forward then being undertaken by a team of people, with input from all interested Government agencies;
4. The negotiating process then moving forward with the opposite side;
5. The ultimate outcomes.
My point is that at '4', it appears the opposite side, for whatever reason(s), want to shaft us as much as they can. Is it to achieve the best result for them? To cripple us to the extent that we will no longer be a force in the international trading world (ergo they will be better advantaged)? Just out of sheer badmindedness because we are pulling a load of dosh away from them? I don't know, I honestly don't know. I just don't like what I have seen from them so far.
I don't like the fact that that woman protracted the process by several months by taking things through the courts. All she did was, via financial backing, delay the process and into the bargain turned herself into a mini celebrity. I don't like the fact that a Lord of the realm, by dint of his position, was given media time today (BBC1 1 o'clock news for starters) to give his singular opinion that Brexit can be reversed (this smacks of blatant bias by the Beeb) - does this guy speak for the whole nation? However these things are tangential to the points numbered above.
I mean, when all's said and done I figured that if all the racists were voting to leave then it was probably for the best to vote to remain.
I've yet to meet a single European, including a number of EU officials, who isn't sad that the UK is leaving the EU, and befuddled as to why they would leave something that is so beneficial for all sides. There isn't animosity at all as far as I can tell. The thing is, there's a situation at the moment whereby people were told the EU's stance on things, and the process by which negotiations would take place well before the vote was cast. Some of that was dismissed as project fear. All that the EU are really doing is following through on what they've always said would be the process for things.
Johnson et al are whining about the unfairness and meanness of the EU because they sold the public the lie that it would all be plain sailing and the EU would bow down before the might of the British Empire. People were told that was nonsense beforehand, but most chose not to listen.
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