Current Affairs EU In or Out

[peteblue]

To believe that elected officials have changed nothing regarding the EU over the last forty years is just downright stupid.

Politicians have acted according to the grounds they were elected on. You can't just dismiss the work they've done as nothing. You may feel free to disagree with their work, but up until recently the stance towards the EU was more positive than negative in the UK.



You haven't been paying attention then, and this is an EU-thread.

So name 3 things that we have changed......

 

[Harryflashman]

There may well be financial concerns and there may well be financial issues as a result of Brexit. But all changes to a business or economy or even a football team can result in short term changes, either good or bad. The issue though is can we take advantage of the opportunities that will now present themselves. We hear so much negativity, such as we might not be able to fly into the EU, even though every other country on the planet does, that Leavers feel obliged to defend their position when actually there is no need. There will be a short term change, again it could be positive or negative, but long term if we behave correctly we will all do well.......

In your opinion ‘we will all do well ‘ that is and I’m happy to respect that . However you aren’t the only person on this board Who is financially secure , held positions of authority or had a varied life. My point is some of us disagree and feel the risk wasn’t one worth taking . Opinions differ that’s the reality but , and again , I’d hope you’d agree a lot of the leave side does seem based on “it’ll all be fine “ rather than evidence , because well it has to be but of course it might work out anything can happen as we’ve seen so often recently.

Reasoned debate is something I enjoy but Its not going to stop my concerns over where leave is going to take us , just as I’m sure your opposition to the EU wouldn’t have disappeared with a remain vote.

 

[peteblue]

In your opinion ‘we will all do well ‘ that is and I’m happy to respect that . However you aren’t the only person on this board Who is financially secure , held positions of authority or had a varied life. My point is some of us disagree and feel the risk wasn’t one worth taking . Opinions differ that’s the reality but , and again , I’d hope you’d agree a lot of the leave side does seem based on “it’ll all be fine “ rather than evidence , because well it has to be but of course it might work out anything can happen as we’ve seen so often recently.

Reasoned debate is something I enjoy but Its not going to stop my concerns over where leave is going to take us , just as I’m sure your opposition to the EU wouldn’t have disappeared with a remain vote.

The problem is that evidence was in short supply, from both sides. However, now that a decision has been made, continually trying to undermine our negotiating position really doesn’t help, IMO. The issue is now how do we make the best of it and prosper, whereas some people are still fighting the result and actually making things worse for us all......

 

[roydo]

So name 3 things that we have changed......

Sketchy on the detail, but we agreed to the FTA, customs union, and free movement of people.

We retained our veto, sacked the Euro off, and ergo, retained economic control whilst being able to trade freely within the planets largest trading block.

Changed? Not a clue on the machinations behind the scenes, but to suggest that, in your own words, "The 5th biggest economy in the world" had zero effect or influence on a plethora of negotiations is fantasy.

Because if you think thats the case, cant wait to see the influence we have with the wider world.

But hey, we can make our own rules

 

[Harryflashman]

The problem is that evidence was in short supply, from both sides. However, now that a decision has been made, continually trying to undermine our negotiating position really doesn’t help, IMO. The issue is now how do we make the best of it and prosper, whereas some people are still fighting the result and actually making things worse for us all......

Personally I’ve never been a fan of avoiding a problem because it’s uncomfortable.

A Brexit minister whose view of key negotiations makes Martinez’s post match review look gritty, dour and negative; a foreign secretary openly undermining his PM ; a chancellor who is opposed to the whole Brexit position and a PM who can’t get through the most important speech of her life and tends to see strong and stable as code for not being quite sure what your Brexit policy actually is probably cause us more problems than people identifying actual issues they’re concerned with .

 

[peteblue]

Personally I’ve never been a fan of avoiding a problem because it’s uncomfortable.

A Brexit minister whose view of key negotiations makes Martinez’s post match review look gritty, dour and negative; a foreign secretary openly undermining his PM ; a chancellor who is opposed to the whole Brexit position and a PM who can’t get through the most important speech of her life and tends to see strong and stable as code for not being quite sure what your Brexit policy actually is probably cause us more problems than people identifying actual issues they’re concerned with .

Perhaps. But sometimes these people react to what is happening around them. If the remainers, after the vote, had all come out and said ‘we don’t like the result but in a democracy we have to accept it’ then common sense concerns and criticisms could have been viewed sensibly and acted upon. The problem we have is that remainers are actually trying to reverse the vote and so their comments, justifiable or not, are met with suspicion and scepticism........

 

[Harryflashman]

Perhaps. But sometimes these people react to what is happening around them. If the remainers, after the vote, had all come out and said ‘we don’t like the result but in a democracy we have to accept it’ then common sense concerns and criticisms could have been viewed sensibly and acted upon. The problem we have is that remainers are actually trying to reverse the vote and so their comments, justifiable or not, are met with suspicion and scepticism........

Ok but can you say in all honesty that’s what you and the leavers would have done if the vote had gone the other way ? Of course not because that’s not how democracy works is it , it’s not like a quiz show where you lose exiting quietly and say “well we’ve all had a lovely day” .

 

[peteblue]

Sketchy on the detail, but we agreed to the FTA, customs union, and free movement of people.

We retained our veto, sacked the Euro off, and ergo, retained economic control whilst being able to trade freely within the planets largest trading block.

Changed? Not a clue on the machinations behind the scenes, but to suggest that, in your own words, "The 5th biggest economy in the world" had zero effect or influence on a plethora of negotiations is fantasy.

Because if you think thats the case, cant wait to see the influence we have with the wider world.

But hey, we can make our own rules

We have changed nothing. The EU is dominated by Germany and France and always has been. It is run and especially the Euro is run specifically for the benefit of Germany. The EU consists of 28/27 countries, there are another 160 odd in the world. The Eu economy is a dwindling percentage of world trade. It is displaying a culture of insularity and decline, not one of embracing the world and growth. We don’t need influence in the wider world, we already have it to a degree, we just need to be a good world player and trading nation based on the fact that we are a responsible, law abiding and trustful nation that applies the rule of law. We will not make our own rules, we will do what we always have, agree rules with partners and stick to the rules.......

 

[peteblue]

Ok but can you say in all honesty that’s what you and the leavers would have done if the vote had gone the other way ? Of course not because that’s not how democracy works is it , it’s not like a quiz show where you lose exiting quietly and say “well we’ve all had a lovely day” .

If the vote had gone the other way, I for one would have stood by it, absolutely......

 

[Old Blue 2]

It doesn’t help though does it when Boris talks about ‘taking control’ of the £350m only last month and let’s be candid he knows exactly what he’s doing . I’m not suggesting leave voters are stupid at all but that’s a comment meant to reasonate with those that wrongly focused on the £350m figure .

I completely accept that the referendum was democracy in action , I may disagree with the result but if you believe in democracy you have to accept the result and I’ll also accept absolutely that both sides lied during the campaign . My point is that when a prominent leaver like Boris throws the £350m figure into conversation it has a purpose .

I’d hope , in fact I’m sure , we can agree that a least a fair number of people focused on the £350m figure . I’m not suggesting it was instrumental and regardless that’s irrelevant. My point is that knowing how it resonated and how controversial it was the fact that the foreign secretary mentioned ‘taking control’ was a statement that was less than helpful.

I think overall your points are fair , obviously though many those of us who wanted to remain feel the evidence points towards serious financial concerns and feel we’re entitled to raise those concerns whilst we believe many leavers feel prepared to ignore all evidence to this effect .

Personally, I don't like Boris. I think he has bumbled into politics as something to do, from his very privileged background.

About the £350 million. I know that is a gross figure. I know that before anything goes across to the EU, there are rebates to be taken off that figure. I understand (although I cannot be certain on this, it is just what others have said, so I stand to be corrected) that we have no say in how that rebate is deployed in the UK, either fully or partially. From what I understand will be the final scenario when we are totally free of the EU and reach the point where no further payments of any kind are made, what was £350 million gross, however much net, then becomes £350 million gross for the UK Government to deploy. That is what I THINK he is alluding to. I believe, as you say, that quite a few obviously took note of the £350 million figure - I did, but then looked into what it meant exactly vis-a-vis the present financial scenario and the future scenario, as I have just outlined in my previous sentences in this paragraph.

Your last paragraph, yes I agree there are/will be financial concerns. But what continues to scare the crap out of me (and I suspect many others) is that the so-called financial experts have got things wrong time and time and time again - even the top man in the Bank of England has got things wrong since the vote! (now that DOES scare me if they are the ones holding the purse strings). We don't ignore evidence (and I submit that applies to both Leavers and Remainers), but we have to question it in the style of devil's advocate to see if it stands up to close scrutiny. So Leavers do have financial concerns also. From the moment I got married I have wrestled with financial concerns, the peaks and troughs, and come through (and so has 'er indoors!).

The term 'taking control' doesn't bother me in the slightest. I'll take control of my car when the last payment is made. Until then, a third party has a real stake in it. Same with the £350 Million. The UK will take control of it fully when all financial ties (with respect to that sum) are severed from the EU.

I hope this explains myself a bit better...

 

[Old Blue 2]

And the Leave voters simply wont accept that things just might not work out all fine and dandy.

The rest of your post, generally agree with, esp the last paragraph. Lets hope it is ok. Just seemed a daft gamble to take imo.

roydo,
See my previous post, which I think answers the above.

 

[roydo]

We have changed nothing. The EU is dominated by Germany and France and always has been. It is run and especially the Euro is run specifically for the benefit of Germany. The EU consists of 28/27 countries, there are another 160 odd in the world. The Eu economy is a dwindling percentage of world trade. It is displaying a culture of insularity and decline, not one of embracing the world and growth. We don’t need influence in the wider world, we already have it to a degree, we just need to be a good world player and trading nation based on the fact that we are a responsible, law abiding and trustful nation that applies the rule of law. We will not make our own rules, we will do what we always have, agree rules with partners and stick to the rules.......

Lets hope so.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Ok but can you say in all honesty that’s what you and the leavers would have done if the vote had gone the other way ? Of course not because that’s not how democracy works is it , it’s not like a quiz show where you lose exiting quietly and say “well we’ve all had a lovely day” .

Shrugged shoulders and carried on. I was expecting remain to win.

Let me ask you a question Harry: If the vote would have been to remain, would this thread have gone to 1,429 pages (as I type)? Don't think so...

 

[roydo]

If the vote had gone the other way, I for one would have stood by it, absolutely......

Interestingly the main protagonist in this mess said the exact opposite if the margins were the same.

But I will accept your stance.

FWIW, I accept the result. Its done.

I just dont accept that it was the best thing for the UK.

 

[roydo]

Shrugged shoulders and carried on. I was expecting remain to win.

Let me ask you a question Harry: If the vote would have been to remain, would this thread have gone to 1,429 pages (as I type)? Don't think so...

Not a chance. But that is a good thing. Its contentious, but in general this thread has been an intelligent and respectful debate.

If we had voted to stay, would have been in the vaults ages ago I reckon.