Current Affairs EU In or Out

[roydo]

Freedom of movement is uncontrolled immigration, the clue is in the name.....

No. We have controlled immigration from non EU states.

 

[Old Blue 2]

It was clearly used by the Brexit campaign and strongly implied on repeated occasions that the money would be used to fund the NHS.

The public were completely misled on this point, and to imply it was only used as a 'comparative' is totally disingenuous.

And here is a link showing one of the chief Brexit architects admitting they would never have won the referendum without the £350m for the NHS claim:

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/vote-leave-director-admits-won-lied-public/08/02/

Of course it was! But it does not carry the clout of the Government of the day doing it. It is an exhortation to those in power to do something positive for our NHS (instead of the stealthy dismantling of it by the Tories!). Can't you see that?

And it is not disingenuous of me to say it was 'comparative', because that is what it was:

Once again, a comparative. See that bit that says '...enough to build a new NHS hospital every week...' That's a comparative. Nothing more, nothing less. But you may twist it any way you wish...

And whether you like it or not, there are many (I won't say how many, as I have not conducted a poll) who would wish to see the NHS properly funded, instead of the inane ramblings that we have had to suffer in recent times from Hunt in order to justify his turning the screw even tighter on those who staff our NHS hospitals.

Good try, but nowhere near a cigar...

 

[Old Blue 2]

How very Trump'ian

In view of the conversations we have had via PM, Bruce, I was totally surprised by that post of yours...

 

[peteblue]

I think most leavers had nothing to lose, either because they were retired or because they were not doing well in the current system. As with all populist movements, they were promised a golden future that would be both an absolute doddle and a guaranteed certainty. They've been sold royally up the river.

I’m retired, but I didn’t vote for myself because whoever is in charge under whatever set up, I’m in a comfortable position and doing well in the current system. I voted for my family and especially my granddaughter to not be controlled by some EU president who we don’t get to vote for, for the benefit of Germany and France, while shovelling huge amounts of our money into European projects that provide no benefit to the U.K.. A future superstate USE that pretends that many nations are actually European and as one rather than the actual very diverse cultures that we are. The EU has its eyes set on enlargement, mostly on ex Soviet states, and putting Russia into a paranoid position, which I believe will end in War. The EU is currently run by a man from a country population that is less than Manchester, who broke all the rules regarding foreign company taxation, yet acts as though he has been a huge statesman with experience of International diplomacy and war. This is an edifice run by pygmies. You don’t see that, I get it, but do not insult the intelligence or the natural suspicion of people who voted leave.......

 

[Old Blue 2]

Unlike the financial apocalypse and WW3 that Remain foretold. Let’s at least be honest here, both sides told whoppers. Now was anyone on here persuaded by the £350M per week, no, nor the WW3 or apocalypse claim. We all knew what we needed to know about the vote, and to make sure the government sent every household a leaflet saying why it was a bad idea, and yet........

They always seem to forget the £9,5 Million of taxpayers money spent on the production and issue of those leaflets, for some reason. Is it because what should have been an impartial Government decided to interfere with a cross-party referendum by only putting one side of the story? You bet yer sweet bippy it was!

And also Osbourne's threat to totally mallet the lower classes with a swingeing budget if the vote was to leave!

And the Remain side was squeaky clean? Do me a favour...

 

[peteblue]

No. We have controlled immigration from non EU states.

So we have uncontrolled immigration from countries housing 500,000,000 people......

 

[Brennan]

I voted remain mate, but a lot of leavers I speak to say their reasons for voting leave were immigration/bringing power back to the country, not one of them ever mentioned the £350m myth that was put out there by the brexit campaign. Obviously it played some part like.

It played a huge part imo..

When respondents were asked whether they believed the £350m pledge, a quarter of all voters said they did: 35 per cent of Leave voters and 16 per cent of voters who voted to Remain.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.in...emain-win-second-referendum-a7905786.html?amp

 

[joey_macmo]

Of course it was! But it does not carry the clout of the Government of the day doing it. It is an exhortation to those in power to do something positive for our NHS (instead of the stealthy dismantling of it by the Tories!). Can't you see that?

And it is not disingenuous of me to say it was 'comparative', because that is what it was:

Once again, a comparative. See that bit that says '...enough to build a new NHS hospital every week...' That's a comparative. Nothing more, nothing less. But you may twist it any way you wish...

And whether you like it or not, there are many (I won't say how many, as I have not conducted a poll) who would wish to see the NHS properly funded, instead of the inane ramblings that we have had to suffer in recent times from Hunt in order to justify his turning the screw even tighter on those who staff our NHS hospitals.

Good try, but nowhere near a cigar...

Yer @Brennan stop twisting things it was only competitive nothing more

 

[Ron Swanson]

I’m retired, but I didn’t vote for myself because whoever is in charge under whatever set up, I’m in a comfortable position and doing well in the current system. I voted for my family and especially my granddaughter to not be controlled by some EU president who we don’t get to vote for, for the benefit of Germany and France, while shovelling huge amounts of our money into European projects that provide no benefit to the U.K.. A future superstate USE that pretends that many nations are actually European and as one rather than the actual very diverse cultures that we are. The EU has its eyes set on enlargement, mostly on ex Soviet states, and putting Russia into a paranoid position, which I believe will end in War. The EU is currently run by a man from a country population that is less than Manchester, who broke all the rules regarding foreign company taxation, yet acts as though he has been a huge statesman with experience of International diplomacy and war. This is an edifice run by pygmies. You don’t see that, I get it, but do not insult the intelligence or the natural suspicion of people who voted leave.......

The EU president was nominated by heads of state before being voted on by MEPs who we put in the European parliament to represent us. By comparison, the UK PM is currently a woman who was voted into parliament by 37,000 people in Maidenhead (64% of her constituency. She leads a party that doesn't have a majority of seats in the HoC and got 42% of the vote. She may soon be replaced by a PM who has no mandate other than being leader of his/her party. The second chamber is the house of lords, an unelected chamber who can hold sway over the decisions of parliament. And then we have a ceremonial royalty overseeing it all.

It's utterly paranoid to think that by being part of the EU we will somehow diminish our various national cultures. Are the English less english because they're part of the UK? Are scousers less scouse by being part of England? The French couldn't be more culturally proud if they tried. It's a slippery slope fallacy that somehow EU membership will lead to you being less 'british.'

And do you deny the polls that showed most people voted Brexit to keep immigrants out? Some have even hilariously claimed it was to keep the muslims out.

As for the EU projects. It has been EU projects that have supported areas in the UK that have been neglected by our own government. They helped rebuild a war-torn Northern Ireland. Per capita, we pay less to the EU than 7 other countries do, and Germany has a larger EU deficit than we do.

So what do we get in return, nothing? Coupled with the single market, the subsidies we pay to other countries to farm in turn benefit us in having relatively cheap but high quality food imports. And regional aid is a way of helping fellow european states to get a foothold on their own economies and stop their populations emigrating. Science projects that we pay for help the entire world, not just the uk and eu. And finally, in return for our payments of around 8.3bn, single market access brings in between 60-75bn per year.

The EU has no interest in going to war with Russia. What are you basing this on? The formation of the EU has seen the most peaceful period in the history of Europe. If anything, Russia would love the EU to split up.

The EU isn't perfect. I've many criticisms of it. But we were much better placed to make changes to it from within than from without. And if anyone thinks that post-brexit we won't be still beholden to it (but without a say in how it is run) they are deluded.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Yer @Brennan stop twisting things it was only competitive nothing more

Again, joey, that is an exhortaion, not a stated fact of something that will 100% definitely happen.

 

[Ruairi77]

The EU president was nominated by heads of state before being voted on by MEPs who we put in the European parliament to represent us. By comparison, the UK PM is currently a woman who was voted into parliament by 37,000 people in Maidenhead (64% of her constituency. She leads a party that doesn't have a majority of seats in the HoC and got 42% of the vote. She may soon be replaced by a PM who has no mandate other than being leader of his/her party. The second chamber is the house of lords, an unelected chamber who can hold sway over the decisions of parliament. And then we have a ceremonial royalty overseeing it all.

It's utterly paranoid to think that by being part of the EU we will somehow diminish our various national cultures. Are the English less english because they're part of the UK? Are scousers less scouse by being part of England? The French couldn't be more culturally proud if they tried. It's a slippery slope fallacy that somehow EU membership will lead to you being less 'british.'

And do you deny the polls that showed most people voted Brexit to keep immigrants out? Some have even hilariously claimed it was to keep the muslims out.

As for the EU projects. It has been EU projects that have supported areas in the UK that have been neglected by our own government. They helped rebuild a war-torn Northern Ireland. Per capita, we pay less to the EU than 7 other countries do, and Germany has a larger EU deficit than we do.

So what do we get in return, nothing? Coupled with the single market, the subsidies we pay to other countries to farm in turn benefit us in having relatively cheap but high quality food imports. And regional aid is a way of helping fellow european states to get a foothold on their own economies and stop their populations emigrating. Science projects that we pay for help the entire world, not just the uk and eu. And finally, in return for our payments of around 8.3bn, single market access brings in between 60-75bn per year.

The EU has no interest in going to war with Russia. What are you basing this on? The formation of the EU has seen the most peaceful period in the history of Europe. If anything, Russia would love the EU to split up.

The EU isn't perfect. I've many criticisms of it. But we were much better placed to make changes to it from within than from without. And if anyone thinks that post-brexit we won't be still beholden to it (but without a say in how it is run) they are deluded.

Great post!

 

[peteblue]

The EU president was nominated by heads of state before being voted on by MEPs who we put in the European parliament to represent us. By comparison, the UK PM is currently a woman who was voted into parliament by 37,000 people in Maidenhead (64% of her constituency. She leads a party that doesn't have a majority of seats in the HoC and got 42% of the vote. She may soon be replaced by a PM who has no mandate other than being leader of his/her party. The second chamber is the house of lords, an unelected chamber who can hold sway over the decisions of parliament. And then we have a ceremonial royalty overseeing it all.

It's utterly paranoid to think that by being part of the EU we will somehow diminish our various national cultures. Are the English less english because they're part of the UK? Are scousers less scouse by being part of England? The French couldn't be more culturally proud if they tried. It's a slippery slope fallacy that somehow EU membership will lead to you being less 'british.'

And do you deny the polls that showed most people voted Brexit to keep immigrants out? Some have even hilariously claimed it was to keep the muslims out.

As for the EU projects. It has been EU projects that have supported areas in the UK that have been neglected by our own government. They helped rebuild a war-torn Northern Ireland. Per capita, we pay less to the EU than 7 other countries do, and Germany has a larger EU deficit than we do.

So what do we get in return, nothing? Coupled with the single market, the subsidies we pay to other countries to farm in turn benefit us in having relatively cheap but high quality food imports. And regional aid is a way of helping fellow european states to get a foothold on their own economies and stop their populations emigrating. Science projects that we pay for help the entire world, not just the uk and eu. And finally, in return for our payments of around 8.3bn, single market access brings in between 60-75bn per year.

The EU has no interest in going to war with Russia. What are you basing this on? The formation of the EU has seen the most peaceful period in the history of Europe. If anything, Russia would love the EU to split up.

The EU isn't perfect. I've many criticisms of it. But we were much better placed to make changes to it from within than from without. And if anyone thinks that post-brexit we won't be still beholden to it (but without a say in how it is run) they are deluded.

“The EU isn't perfect. I've many criticisms of it. But we were much better placed to make changes to it from within than from without.“.........hahahahaha.....and you call Leavers deluded......

 

[Brennan]

Again, joey, that is an exhortaion, not a stated fact of something that will 100% definitely happen.

It's not an exhortation.

The claim was made by members of the party in power. They have the direct ability to make decisions about such things.

As said previously, utter nonsense to suggest it wasn't presented as a promise. As I linked to in a previous post, a third of leave voters felt they were misled regarding the £350m figure.

Are you calling a third of leave voters stupid ?

 

[Old Blue 2]

It's not an exhortation.

The claim was made by members of the party in power. They have the direct ability to make decisions about such things.

As said previously, utter nonsense to suggest it wasn't presented as a promise. As I linked to in a previous post, a third of leave voters felt they were misled regarding the £350m figure.

Are you calling a third of leave voters stupid ?

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. The Referendum was a cross-party issue with no direct political alignment, except, of course, for Cameron deciding to advocate staying in the EU via his position and wasting £9.5 million of taxpayers money producing a leaflet for every household in the country. Neither side of the Referendum issue had any power WHATSOEVER. They were all campaigners, period.

Is that too difficult to comprehend?

The £350 million regarding the NHS was a comparative figure - I have posted the explanation of that already. It was also an exhortation. It had no weight whatsoever in terms of any kind of commitment to implement. Is that too difficult to comprehend?

 

[dholliday]

It's not an exhortation.

The claim was made by members of the party in power. They have the direct ability to make decisions about such things.

As said previously, utter nonsense to suggest it wasn't presented as a promise. As I linked to in a previous post, a third of leave voters felt they were misled regarding the £350m figure.

Are you calling a third of leave voters stupid ?

The significance of this figure has been completely overblown by the Remain camp. If some voters believed the figure was net and not gross then I still don't believe it would've affected their vote had they known it was a gross figure beforehand. The reasons for voting Brexit wasn't chiefly about how the state assigns money, it was how the EU can overrule the nation state in matters immigration (among others).