Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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Well, for a start it is a bit much to expect the ECJ to be an impartial body and then suggest the UK courts wouldn't be independent.

Secondly, what allowing the ECJ to have jurisdiction over the relationship between EU citizens and the UK government means that the EU can actively intervene in every interaction between an EU citizen and the British state and expect to have its rulings followed. Without the UK having legal primacy over its own affairs, you would inevitably end up with the rights of an EU citizen being defined as those that he or she enjoyed in their own EU member state (or at best, a commonly agreed set of rights across the EU). The system could work in no other way.

I'd imagine the ECJ would be impartial in the case of a Polish person in the UK. As it is, I'd be surprised if the ruling was sliding in anyway but rather a snapshot of the current rights provided to EU citizens living in the UK. It wouldn't change as the rights of EU citizens across the EU changes.
 
You say that, yet people are being deported and asked to leave. I'm afraid all of the migrants I know aren't at all confident in their status. Do you think an EU citizen could go into a bank and say "well Teresa said nice things in Florence, give us a mortgage" and have any luck or do you think the bank will want guarantees of status?

There would be no issue regarding a mortgage, unless they were planning on taking the house with them, is the flippant answer. Obviously their status has to be agreed and written into law, which is what the U.K. has proposed anyway.....
 
The ECJ will have jurisdiction over the affairs of EU citizens in Northern Ireland and therefore in that part of the UK. The governments ECJ jurisdiction over the UK 'red line' is disingenuous to say the least. The EU negotiators have had to lead their UK counterparts by the nose on the Irish issue. The UK government still refuses to mention that the ECJ will still have jurisdiction in Northern Ireland openly, as it would lead to the DUP bringing the government down.

On the wider issue of the ECJ. It is a matter of trust similar to what the UK demanded from China guaranteeing the rights of UK citizens in Hong Kong. Even those EU citizens legally entitled to stay in this country are becoming uneasy about what their future holds. No wonder they will want ECJ protection.

You keep saying that the ECJ will have jurisdiction in Northern Ireland......exactly where has this been either agreed, written down or communicated......
 
Again, I absolutely love the remainers stance on here going to great lengths worrying about the EU nationals, but not one words about any rights for EU based U.K. nationals. It’s like debating with Verhofstadt.......
 
Again, I absolutely love the remainers stance on here going to great lengths worrying about the EU nationals, but not one words about any rights for EU based U.K. nationals. It’s like debating with Verhofstadt.......

I have overlooked all of those stories about UK nationals being threatened with deportation from the EU. As per your previous comment, do you think someone on a limited time visa will seriously be given a 25 year loan?
 
Again, I absolutely love the remainers stance on here going to great lengths worrying about the EU nationals, but not one words about any rights for EU based U.K. nationals. It’s like debating with Verhofstadt.......

I suspect EU nationals here are alot more vulnerable than dave the retired plumber in spain

*i maybe generalising
 
Ireland - the Good Friday Agreement guarantees free movement of people on the island of Ireland so there can't be any checks on people moving throughout the island. This by extension will mean no border for goods so Northern Ireland will stay in the customs union and the single market.

I know, thats why any deal struck will have to have freedom of movement and freedom of trade. For the government to insist that it won't is ludicrous.

In the Northern Ireland Act 1989 there is a provision for ECJ intervention in the affairs of Northern Ireland. Also some Northern Irish citizens have Irish citizen rights, as dual passport holders and therefore come under the jurisdiction of the ECJ. There will be a special arrangement for the island of Ireland. Something the DUP are venomously against, as they want Brexit means Brexit.

There isn't. The act provides for a reference to the ECJ with regards to getting a preliminary ruling over whether legislation proposed by the Assembly is something that the Assembly has within its competence. It does not apply (or at least wouldn't apply directly) to the status of EU (or Northern Ireland) citizens within NI, and its questionable whether it would still apply given that we would no longer be a signatory to the quoted treaties. The actual bit of legislation is below:

12 Reconsideration where reference made to ECJ.

(1)This section applies where—

(a)a reference has been made under section 11 in relation to a provision of a Bill;

(b)a reference for a preliminary ruling has been made by the [F1Supreme Court] in connection with that reference; and

(c)neither of the references has been decided or otherwise disposed of.

(2)If the Assembly resolves that it wishes to reconsider the Bill—

(a)the Presiding Officer shall notify the [F2Advocate General for Northern Ireland and the Attorney General for Northern Ireland] of that fact; and

(b)the [F3person who made the reference in relation to the Bill under section 11 shall request the withdrawal of the reference] .

(3)In this section “reference for a preliminary ruling” means a reference of a question to the European Court of Justice under—

[F4(a) Article 267 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union; or]

(c)Article 150 of the Treaty establishing the European Atomic Energy Community.

As for dual passport holders, just because a person has passports for country A and B, that does not entail that country A can therefore interfere in country B beyond the limits set by international treaties. Irish passport holders in the UK would (and should) fall under the jurisdiction of UK courts in the same way that UK citizens in the Republic would fall under Irish courts.

As far as the wider issue of ECJ and EU citizens in the UK. The tale so far is that the EU just does not trust the UK to not renege on any agreement depending on the political situation in this country. That is why they want the ECJ to still have a say. A joint body would be similar to the UK/Chinese agreement over Hong Kong.

... which the Chinese have repeatedly ignored down the years. I see your point, but they are not proposing a joint body.
 
I'd imagine the ECJ would be impartial in the case of a Polish person in the UK. As it is, I'd be surprised if the ruling was sliding in anyway but rather a snapshot of the current rights provided to EU citizens living in the UK. It wouldn't change as the rights of EU citizens across the EU changes.

I'd imagine our Courts would be impartial about it as well. As for the ECJ sticking to a snapshot of current rights - that is a bit fanciful (they reinterpret legislation quite a bit as it is, as the history of freedom of movement demonstrates) and a bit irrelevant anyway; they would still have the means to circumvent British court decisions which is where the problems (and the dangers) lie.
 
I have overlooked all of those stories about UK nationals being threatened with deportation from the EU. As per your previous comment, do you think someone on a limited time visa will seriously be given a 25 year loan?

I honestly don’t know. If the property is in the U.K. and could always be recovered by the lender then perhaps yes, personally I would say no......
 
..I see something fairly obvious in the Brexit negotiations that nobody seems to pick up on, so perhaps i’m wrong. Surely the EU can’t give the UK anything like a good deal for fear other countries will also want to leave.

Control of it’s own borders and law making whilst keeping access to the single market is the UK bid but lots of other countries will fancy that if it’s granted. The EU will want to make an example or fear the break up of the union.
 
..I see something fairly obvious in the Brexit negotiations that nobody seems to pick up on, so perhaps i’m wrong. Surely the EU can’t give the UK anything like a good deal for fear other countries will also want to leave.

Control of it’s own borders and law making whilst keeping access to the single market is the UK bid but lots of other countries will fancy that if it’s granted. The EU will want to make an example or fear the break up of the union.

Tend to agree mate. The only thing that might twig that is that the UK aint in the Euro. Thats the biggest issue for any nation wanting to leave.

Ergo, they cant. Without a massive repayment to the ECB who bailed some of them out.

They, (Italy, Spain, Greece et al, are in a strait jacket, we at least have a degree of self determination. Not that I wanted to leave anyrate.
 
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