Current Affairs EU In or Out

[jal123]

I'll take that as a compliment.......

You know I like you Pedro, you make it really hard to do so sometimes though

 

[abelard]

I am really pleased that this lying toe rag of a man is a remainer. It gives more credibility to Brexit.....we just need Blair to speak up now.....

"Alastair Campbell, has told fellow Remainers the fight to overturn Brexit is "far from over".........

As a thought experiment, see what your posts read like to a normal person

"I've not seen a single post in this thread from a Brexiter that in any way is not an attack on Europe, yet even an idiot gets one or two things right, but no, lots of clever people pushing a single line and embellishing it with Nazi connections. The EU does not have Nazis, it may have nutters who are easily controlled, but whom you keep giving the oxygen of publicity. Nazis take over a complete country and invade and murder on an unbelieveable scale. Yet the EU was created to prevent these abominations, and indeed, has been remarkably successful to date. I find this "we hate Nazis and Europe" to be a grotesque lack of understanding and a little bit self serving. I know what I write may feel upsetting, but truth and appreciation of absolute intolerance can sometimes feel that way. The day a Brexiter on here posts something even remotely in Brexit's favour will be the day you regain normality. No offence meant, but I thought Brexiters were better than this......"

So now, to live up to your own standards, before you criticize them, you have to first say something nice about Alastair Campbell. And the EU. And Corbyn.

I'll say something nice about Trump if you like: he's probably our greatest hope for the total destruction of the Republican Party.

And I'm always in awe of the Brexiters' single-mindedness!

 

[Clint Planet]

Ben Jennings on Labour's shift on Brexit – cartoon
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...artoon?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

[peteblue]

As a thought experiment, see what your posts read like to a normal person

"I've not seen a single post in this thread from a Brexiter that in any way is not an attack on Europe, yet even an idiot gets one or two things right, but no, lots of clever people pushing a single line and embellishing it with Nazi connections. The EU does not have Nazis, it may have nutters who are easily controlled, but whom you keep giving the oxygen of publicity. Nazis take over a complete country and invade and murder on an unbelieveable scale. Yet the EU was created to prevent these abominations, and indeed, has been remarkably successful to date. I find this "we hate Nazis and Europe" to be a grotesque lack of understanding and a little bit self serving. I know what I write may feel upsetting, but truth and appreciation of absolute intolerance can sometimes feel that way. The day a Brexiter on here posts something even remotely in Brexit's favour will be the day you regain normality. No offence meant, but I thought Brexiters were better than this......"

So now, to live up to your own standards, before you criticize them, you have to first say something nice about Alastair Campbell. And the EU. And Corbyn.

I'll say something nice about Trump if you like: he's probably our greatest hope for the total destruction of the Republican Party.

And I'm always in awe of the Brexiters' single-mindedness!

Well first of all I disagree with the bit in bold. The Common market , the EEC and then the EU were set up to trade, they had no influence on controlling Nazis. The American and British forces based in Germany saw to that. NATO has provided security across Europe.

Alastair Campbell supports a good old football club, Burnley. The EU is a great way to keep European enterprise from competing with America (Obama loves it), but has done marvels in distributing UK monies to ex soviet countries to bring them up to date. Corbyn has promised to keep my pensions and various allowances rolling in, even though I don't need them......

 

[peteblue]

"France and other EU nations have signalled they are willing to begin Brexit trade talks as early as October in a move that opens the door to a climbdown by the EU, The Telegraph has learned.

Senior French diplomats have made clear they want to see the deadlocked Brexit talks make progress in the first sign of splits emerging in the EU.

Under the terms of a proposal set out by France the UK is being encouraged to request a three-year transitional deal if it continues to pay into the EU Budget and accepts EU law.

This position puts Paris at odds with hardliners in Brussels and Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, who are insisting there can be no trade talks until the issue of the Brexit divorce bill is settled."

 

[Jamiednm]

Well first of all I disagree with the bit in bold. The Common market , the EEC and then the EU were set up to trade, they had no influence on controlling Nazis. The American and British forces based in Germany saw to that. NATO has provided security across Europe.

Alastair Campbell supports a good old football club, Burnley. The EU is a great way to keep European enterprise from competing with America (Obama loves it), but has done marvels in distributing UK monies to ex soviet countries to bring them up to date. Corbyn has promised to keep my pensions and various allowances rolling in, even though I don't need them......

Providing a framework and goal for ex-Soviet colonies to modernise and democratise is the EU's best achievement.

You're right about European enterprise. The US has the richest and most influential tech companies in the world - Amazon, Facebook, Google, Apple etc. The EU, with its much larger population, a larger internal market and equivalent educational resources doesn't have anything at all to rival any of them. The single market is more concerned with selling Audi's and BMW's, so the digital single market in services doesn't exist. EU regulators focus too much on breaking up dominance rather than nurturing the creativity that allows companies such as Amazon to achieve dominance, thrive and provide wealth and influence.

I've wanted out of the EU for well over a decade because it is clear how uncompetitive and archaic it is, a huge, unnecessary political project that is continually beset with crisis, gridlock and disparate conflicting interests. If I thought the project was worth pursuing, I would be the first to advocate Britain being right in there, taking the lead and contributing as much as anyone, but it is clearly an outdated model, a 1950's solution to a 1930's problem, completely unfit for the modern world.

 

[Jamiednm]

Part of the UK's problem with the EU is that it was always mis-sold to the British public. We were lied to by our own politicians when we voted to join in the 70s, when Ted Heath (knowingly lying) said it wouldn't infringe on our sovereignty. That deception continued, such as when we were denied a vote on the Lisbon Treaty (which gave the EU dramatically more power at the expense of national sovereignties), because it was sold as a 'tidying up exercise'. It's ironic that Brexit critics go on about that bloody Vote Leave bus, when the EU has been built on lies for decades.

Of course, the administration of a continent-wide single market would mean a certain level of political integration, but if that was what the EU was about (as was advertised to us over the last 4 decades), then it would just be a more advanced version of the EEA today, and Brexit wouldn't be a thing.

The real driving goal of the EU is total, federal integration. That may be fine for some people, but I don't personally want that because I don't think it is at all necessary for Britain, I have concerns about its democratic accountability and believe that the more remote a government is, the less effective it is for its citizens.

Of course, because I hold these views, I am regularly called a xenophobe and racist, even though my views have nothing whatsoever to do with immigration. It shows the level of short-sightedness amongst people who continue to call Brexiteers thick and racist. It also highlights their mistaken view that Brexit was 'caused' by a tsunami of populism stoked up for a couple of months in early 2016, despite Britain's long-standing high level of Eurosceptism.

 

[peteblue]

Providing a framework and goal for ex-Soviet colonies to modernise and democratise is the EU's best achievement.

You're right about European enterprise. The US has the richest and most influential tech companies in the world - Amazon, Facebook, Google, Apple etc. The EU, with its much larger population, a larger internal market and equivalent educational resources doesn't have anything at all to rival any of them. The single market is more concerned with selling Audi's and BMW's, so the digital single market in services doesn't exist. EU regulators focus too much on breaking up dominance rather than nurturing the creativity that allows companies such as Amazon to achieve dominance, thrive and provide wealth and influence.

I've wanted out of the EU for well over a decade because it is clear how uncompetitive and archaic it is, a huge, unnecessary political project that is continually beset with crisis, gridlock and disparate conflicting interests. If I thought the project was worth pursuing, I would be the first to advocate Britain being right in there, taking the lead and contributing as much as anyone, but it is clearly an outdated model, a 1950's solution to a 1930's problem, completely unfit for the modern world.

Welcome to this thread.......

 

[peteblue]

Part of the UK's problem with the EU is that it was always mis-sold to the British public. We were lied to by our own politicians when we voted to join in the 70s, when Ted Heath (knowingly lying) said it wouldn't infringe on our sovereignty. That deception continued, such as when we were denied a vote on the Lisbon Treaty (which gave the EU dramatically more power at the expense of national sovereignties), because it was sold as a 'tidying up exercise'. It's ironic that Brexit critics go on about that bloody Vote Leave bus, when the EU has been built on lies for decades.

Of course, the administration of a continent-wide single market would mean a certain level of political integration, but if that was what the EU was about (as was advertised to us over the last 4 decades), then it would just be a more advanced version of the EEA today, and Brexit wouldn't be a thing.

The real driving goal of the EU is total, federal integration. That may be fine for some people, but I don't personally want that because I don't think it is at all necessary for Britain, I have concerns about its democratic accountability and believe that the more remote a government is, the less effective it is for its citizens.

Of course, because I hold these views, I am regularly called a xenophobe and racist, even though my views have nothing whatsoever to do with immigration. It shows the level of short-sightedness amongst people who continue to call Brexiteers thick and racist. It also highlights their mistaken view that Brexit was 'caused' by a tsunami of populism stoked up for a couple of months in early 2016, despite Britain's long-standing high level of Eurosceptism.

Don't worry, you'll be called a Nazi sooner or later as well......

 

[Ruairi77]

Part of the UK's problem with the EU is that it was always mis-sold to the British public. We were lied to by our own politicians when we voted to join in the 70s, when Ted Heath (knowingly lying) said it wouldn't infringe on our sovereignty. That deception continued, such as when we were denied a vote on the Lisbon Treaty (which gave the EU dramatically more power at the expense of national sovereignties), because it was sold as a 'tidying up exercise'. It's ironic that Brexit critics go on about that bloody Vote Leave bus, when the EU has been built on lies for decades.

Of course, the administration of a continent-wide single market would mean a certain level of political integration, but if that was what the EU was about (as was advertised to us over the last 4 decades), then it would just be a more advanced version of the EEA today, and Brexit wouldn't be a thing.

The real driving goal of the EU is total, federal integration. That may be fine for some people, but I don't personally want that because I don't think it is at all necessary for Britain, I have concerns about its democratic accountability and believe that the more remote a government is, the less effective it is for its citizens.

Of course, because I hold these views, I am regularly called a xenophobe and racist, even though my views have nothing whatsoever to do with immigration. It shows the level of short-sightedness amongst people who continue to call Brexiteers thick and racist. It also highlights their mistaken view that Brexit was 'caused' by a tsunami of populism stoked up for a couple of months in early 2016, despite Britain's long-standing high level of Eurosceptism.

Good post, well thought through.
I would argue that you could have negotiated membership that was a single market one step above the EEA with the political integration that comes with that but Cameron went all in and lost.
On Lisbon, that's another failing on the part of British politicians. The treaty was put to the Irish who voted it down, one of the main grievances was neutrality which was addressed and it passed. There was room for negotiation and a democratic vote.
On a federal Europe, that's your opinion, rather than fact. Britains ability to opt out of the Euro and Schengen would suggest to me that the single market and ease of commerce is the priority of the EU and members seem to be able to negotiate the level of their membership.
Of course there are Eurosceptics since 1972 and justifiably in a lot of cases. It just seems that the binary 'out' vote was the result of Cameron's negligence when it came to negotiations and everyone is paying for his poor political maneuvering

 

[peteblue]

Good post, well thought through.
I would argue that you could have negotiated membership that was a single market one step above the EEA with the political integration that comes with that but Cameron went all in and lost.
On Lisbon, that's another failing on the part of British politicians. The treaty was put to the Irish who voted it down, one of the main grievances was neutrality which was addressed and it passed. There was room for negotiation and a democratic vote.
On a federal Europe, that's your opinion, rather than fact. Britains ability to opt out of the Euro and Schengen would suggest to me that the single market and ease of commerce is the priority of the EU and members seem to be able to negotiate the level of their membership.
Of course there are Eurosceptics since 1972 and justifiably in a lot of cases. It just seems that the binary 'out' vote was the result of Cameron's negligence when it came to negotiations and everyone is paying for his poor political maneuvering

It's too simplistic to just blame Cameron. He tried to reach a position that the UK public would accept. The EU thought it knew better, and offered nothing, in fact it seemed almost designed to put Cameron in his place. The uk public saw through this position and we are where we are. No going back. I would pin the blame squarely on Juncker and Merkel......

 

[Ruairi77]

It's too simplistic to just blame Cameron. He tried to reach a position that the UK public would accept. The EU thought it knew better, and offered nothing, in fact it seemed almost designed to put Cameron in his place. The uk public saw through this position and we are where we are. No going back. I would pin the blame squarely on Juncker and Merkel......

I thought you were in the pub

 

[peteblue]

I thought you were in the pub

Got back about an hour ago, had dinner, just enjoying a glass of wine.....

 

[Jamiednm]

Good post, well thought through.
I would argue that you could have negotiated membership that was a single market one step above the EEA with the political integration that comes with that but Cameron went all in and lost.
On Lisbon, that's another failing on the part of British politicians. The treaty was put to the Irish who voted it down, one of the main grievances was neutrality which was addressed and it passed. There was room for negotiation and a democratic vote.
On a federal Europe, that's your opinion, rather than fact. Britains ability to opt out of the Euro and Schengen would suggest to me that the single market and ease of commerce is the priority of the EU and members seem to be able to negotiate the level of their membership.
Of course there are Eurosceptics since 1972 and justifiably in a lot of cases. It just seems that the binary 'out' vote was the result of Cameron's negligence when it came to negotiations and everyone is paying for his poor political maneuvering

Cameron's whole approach was farcical. Firstly, he rushed it through, thinking we would never vote to leave - and even said this to his EU counterparts, drastically weakening his negotiating position. Secondly, he had a UK-only view in a union of 28 countries. If he really wanted reform, he should've argued for something that would benefit the UK and the other member states, taking time to develop a strategy and consensus, at least having a final crack at EU reform.

Re: federal Europe, yes it is a (widely-held) opinion, based on the history of the EU and what prominent politicians and groups in the EU are pushing for. For the Euro to survive as a long-term viable currency, its members will have to consolidate a common fiscal and taxation policy. No other major currency has ever survived and thrived without this.

The EU is a fluid project, it's aim is 'ever closer union'. The fact that EU citizens have different opinions about what the EU is and what it's trying to achieve highlights one of its major failings - that it is vague and too remote from its citizenry. The fact is, it is still very much in a developmental phase, not at its destination.

In my opinion, had we remained, the UK would have been compelled to adopt the Euro sometime in the future and opt-outs across member states would be 'harmonised' through future treaties. Look at the demographics of Brexit - the young are more pro-EU, therefore the population would be more likely to go pro-Euro in the coming decades.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Of course, because I hold these views, I am regularly called a xenophobe and racist, even though my views have nothing whatsoever to do with immigration. It shows the level of short-sightedness amongst people who continue to call Brexiteers thick and racist. It also highlights their mistaken view that Brexit was 'caused' by a tsunami of populism stoked up for a couple of months in early 2016, despite Britain's long-standing high level of Eurosceptism.

I hear this a lot now, 'I’m not xenophobe or racist', at best the conciliatory tone of Brexit which I have no doubt there are some but sat quite while UKIP fronted by Farage stated posted and flirted with far right of the UK which again I have no doubt exist. But did it just get across to the winning line. And this posistion is what made me vote remain, the idea of freedom of movement (FOM) and treating people as economic widgets is abhorrent to me, but pitting working people directly affected by FOM against each other as UKIP fronted by Farage did was disgusting.