Current Affairs EU In or Out

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    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
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"French President Emmanuel Macron on Friday triggered a furious reaction from Poland after he attacked Warsaw for rejecting tough proposals to overhaul a controversial EU rule on cheap labour.
"Poland today is not a country that can show Europe the way, it's a country that has decided to go against European interests in many areas," Macron told a press conference in the coastal city of Varna in Bulgaria.

"Europe was built on public freedoms that Poland violates... It is placing itself on the margins of Europe's future history," said the centrist president who took office in May.

His remarks drew the ire of Polish Prime Minister Beata Szydlo.

"Perhaps (Macron's) arrogant comments result from lack of political experience, which I can understand, but I expect that he will make up for this shortcoming and will be more restrained in the future," she told the
right-wing wPolityce.pl news website on Friday."

https://www.thelocal.fr/20170826/france-and-poland-clash-over-eu-cheap-labour-rule

I'm sure a two year fudge will result, but Macron is really taking to this 'France and Germany lead' stance.......

Have you seen the state of Poland right now? Basic democratic freedoms under attack from a bunch of nasty racists who happen to be in power.


"Europe was built on public freedoms that Poland violates... It is placing itself on the margins of Europe's future history," said the centrist president who took office in May.

His remarks drew the ire of Polish Prime Minister Beata Szydlo
.

Szyldo, by the way, is a puppet more than a politician - under the command of the unelected eminence gris, Jarosław Kaczyński.
 
I still wonder if you can answer my questions. Why are trade deficits necessarily bad, and how on earth will leaving the EU address this?

You seem to be thinking about this like an imperial-age mercantilist. The world hasn't worked that way for a long time.

Essentially: Trade surplus = you trade goods and services you produce for someone else's pieces of paper
Trade deficit = you trade pieces of paper for the goods and services someone else produces

You have a 100% trade deficit with your grocery store... but since this enables you to survive, it is obviously not a bad thing.

Similarly, Britain is a small, cold, and relatively remote island. If it no longer imported items from the rest of the world, it would be a truly miserable place to live. The standard of living would drop tremendously. The ability to instead access French wine, German cars and machinery, Spanish and Italian foods etc, is clearly not a bad thing.

A trade surplus, meanwhile, necessarily results in lower external consumption - ie: lower material well-bring . Germany's trade surplus is partly because demand for top-quality German products is high, but also because of German labour reforms and tight-monetary efforts, which make it more difficult for Germans to consume products from abroad.

Britain produces less of what EU countries want to consume than Germany does, but this has nothing to do with its EU membership, and everything to do with decades of terrible industrial policy, mostly under Thatcher. Leaving the EU will do very little to address this.

And anyhow, before Brexit, the ability to import the EU items which people enjoy was never a problem because of the UK's corresponding stronger currency. By destroying the value of the Pound, all that Brexit is doing is making the EU items which people enjoy, and which raise our material standard of living, and for which the UK has no domestic alternatives, less accessible. "Shrinkflation," to use one of the lazy portmanteaus that define our stupid times.

Meanwhile, as you yourself point out, the trade deficit has reached historic proportions, and it only continues to grow, despite the collapse of the Pound which lowers the cost of UK goods for European consumers.

In short, in the age of floating currency exchange rates, a trade deficit can be but is not necessarily a bad thing - the US has one, Canada has one, Australia has one, France has one, and it was never a problem for Britain until Brexit - and in any case, if it were a problem, Brexit would only compound this rather than solve it.

Awaiting your rant in response about something completely unrelated, taken out of context, which will make me regret the time it took attempting to explain all this...

I'm glad you have given it some thought, but your focus seems to be more upon the consumerism benefits of being able to buy BMW's or whatever. It may indeed merely show consumer preference. However, a trade deficit is just that, a deficit, we are spending more than we are earning. While in the short term this can be a manageable situation, it will have an effect upon UK employment and growth as well as putting pressure upon the pound. Borrowings will increase and if that money is merely spent on consumer goods rather than invested into capital projects etc or to improve our capabilities or efficiencies then we are on a slippery slope. I agree that Trade surpluses are not necessarily good either but they do negate the need for foreign borrowings and the vagaries of foreign investors. Therefore, I'd rather have a small trade surplus than a large trade deficit, and the current EU trading relationship merely increases our deficit........
 
Nice to see Labour have at least formally recognised the economic lunacy of Brexit, but they've done it in the wrong way. It'll confuse rather than clarify.

I think they want to bin it, but won't be in power by the time the deadline runs out, so are setting their stall instead.

Either way, things are falling into place which may hopefully mean we step back from the abyss and Brexit never happens.

I think you mean stepping back from freedom and success. But putting that aside, why are you so frightened of leaving the EU ?........
 
Have you seen the state of Poland right now? Basic democratic freedoms under attack from a bunch of nasty racists who happen to be in power.


"Europe was built on public freedoms that Poland violates... It is placing itself on the margins of Europe's future history," said the centrist president who took office in May.

His remarks drew the ire of Polish Prime Minister Beata Szydlo
.

Szyldo, by the way, is a puppet more than a politician - under the command of the unelected eminence gris, Jarosław Kaczyński.

I don't particularly like what Poland is doing with its democracy, but the particular issue I raised was more about France and how it is now complaining about how Poland is exercising its rights to gain commercial advantage. There's no doubt that Poland are taking the mick at France's expense, but all within EU rules. Macron however is now stamping his feet and acting like a latter day Bonaparte.......
 
I'm glad you have given it some thought, but your focus seems to be more upon the consumerism benefits of being able to buy BMW's or whatever. It may indeed merely show consumer preference. However, a trade deficit is just that, a deficit, we are spending more than we are earning. While in the short term this can be a manageable situation, it will have an effect upon UK employment and growth as well as putting pressure upon the pound. Borrowings will increase and if that money is merely spent on consumer goods rather than invested into capital projects etc or to improve our capabilities or efficiencies then we are on a slippery slope. I agree that Trade surpluses are not necessarily good either but they do negate the need for foreign borrowings and the vagaries of foreign investors. Therefore, I'd rather have a small trade surplus than a large trade deficit, and the current EU trading relationship merely increases our deficit........

You're confusing a trade deficit with a fiscal deficit. They are not at all the same thing. And anyhow, Britain has a trade surplus with just about everywhere else in the world, which balances the trade deficit with the EU. Not, as I've explained above, that this is even a bad thing.

The ability to invest in capital projects has nothing to do with trade deficits. I agree that the UK should invest much, much more in things like infrastructure, education etc, but if you wanted to do that, you should have voted against the Tories, not against Remain. Refusing to invest in these sorts of things is a political decision that has nothing, at all, to do with the EU. Virtually all the EU countries do this much better than Britain does.

Brexit will make Britain's ability to develop infrastructure, increase productivity or "improve our capabilities or efficiencies" much, much more difficult than before. The UK now has the lowest growth rate in Europe (save Greece) yet somehow manages to have inflation, both thanks largely if not entirely to Brexit. Already, everything costs more even as everyone is earning less, and if the Tories manage to pull off something truly stupid like a "Hard Brexit," which I doubt most proponents even understand, there could well be an exodus of firms, to say nothing of all the investment already withheld while everyone waits to see just how harmful and stupid this is going to be.
 
If you support Brexit because of something abstract like "sovereignty" or because you see it as a form of World War II re-enactment, or you just want to drive all the scary foreigners away, whatever the cost, so be it - but at least be intellectually honest enough to admit that these objectives, whatever their merits, can be pursued only at an enormous economic cost.

Do us all a favour and at least stop pretending that this is also going to be all sugarplums and rainbows, that we can (literally!) have our cake and eat it too, and that dimwitted shire Tories like Liam Fox, laughingstocks even within the Tory Party, are going to magically Make Britain Great Again by going around the world spreading the nation's legs wider still for the Saudis and other murderous tyrants.

The economic case presented so far is staggering vapidly, nothing more than platitudes and empty assertions, from the highest level all the way down to @peteblue's "remain means 'stepping back from freedom and success.'"

It is already clear, to everyone unblinkered enough to confront the evidence, that this is going to be an economic nightmare, and we haven't even left yet much less decided how stupid our departure is going to be.

At the very least lets all be honest about that.

If fighting for very modest enhancements in abstractions like "sovereignty" are what you're after, or you're old enough to still viscerally loathe Johnny Foreigner or the Hun, at least have the intellectual courage to confront what it will cost us. You won the vote - so spare us the Churchillian flourishes, or the Tinkerbell act that Brexit will be wonderful if only we all just believe.
 
I am really pleased that this lying toe rag of a man is a remainer. It gives more credibility to Brexit.....we just need Blair to speak up now.....

"Alastair Campbell, has told fellow Remainers the fight to overturn Brexit is "far from over".........
 
I am really pleased that this lying toe rag of a man is a remainer. It gives more credibility to Brexit.....we just need Blair to speak up now.....

"Alastair Campbell, has told fellow Remainers the fight to overturn Brexit is "far from over".........
A fantastic spin doctor, basically rewrote the rules. Very clever man, knows his stuff regarding Brexit
 
A fantastic spin doctor, basically rewrote the rules. Very clever man, knows his stuff regarding Brexit

He also knew his stuff regarding Iraq, the dodgy dossier and Dr David Kelly..........if you believe he adds credibility to any form of argument then I wish you well.......
 
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