Current Affairs EU In or Out

In or Out

  • In

    Votes: 688 67.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 325 32.1%

  • Total voters
    1,013
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Nothing in principle. Some small practicality issues like provision of housing, schooling, health, law and order perhaps.....

Hang on, but if they're working they're paying tax and council tax and thus contributing to the treasury and local council purse, so why shouldn't the treasury / council then be responsible for providing adequate resource on a local level?
 
Hang on, but if they're working they're paying tax and council tax and thus contributing to the treasury and local council purse, so why shouldn't the treasury / council then be responsible for providing adequate resource on a local level?

Because houses, hospitals, and schools do not pop up overnight. Controlled immigration means these things can be planned, budgeted, financed and built in the right numbers and at the appropriate time. Uncontrolled immigration would just be a mess and you know that......
 
Because houses, hospitals, and schools do not pop up overnight. Controlled immigration means these things can be planned, budgeted, financed and built in the right numbers and at the appropriate time. Uncontrolled immigration would just be a mess and you know that......
Sorry but with the caveat that the state have no responsibility to fund arrivals, then the job market would control it organically. No jobs available = no movement of people. When there's a need for a specific skill etc then the world market can supply without quotas.

We're already seeing thousands of health service jobs sitting vacant due to the reluctance of EU workers to come and fill them due to the uncertainty surrounding Brexit. We're going to need people to fill them, and if they're not coming from the EU then they're going to have to up the quotas from non EU countries over time.

Our net immigration numbers have been roughly the same for years now, and yet there's not been the infrastructure investment by central or local Govt. So it's nothing to do with planning and everything to do with the will. The phoney austerity years being behind it. Increasing National debt by £700BN during said 'austerity' whilst cutting taxes for the wealthy, economic genius.
 
If you think Germany rules Europe, presumably you believe America rules the world? They exert at least a proportionate influence, culturally, economically, militarily.

I don't buy into that Germany rules Europe narrative. It doesn't make sense. I'll admit though that the EU always did/does best when the Franco-German axle was well aligned.

Imo it's cultivated by the attitude that is still present in a considerable part of the British public, towards the Germans. My advice would be to let it go, it was a long time ago. There is no need for songs about German bombers etc; no need for goading them about the war ... No need for highly insulting covers on the Daily Mail and so on.

In this respect the Passendale centennial was quite a missed opportunity. Quite a one-sided affair with little reflection. The commemoration of the battle of Verdun was a whole other ballgame; a very strong signal and lesson.
 
I don't buy into that Germany rules Europe narrative. It doesn't make sense. I'll admit though that the EU always did/does best when the Franco-German axle was well aligned.

Imo it's cultivated by the attitude that is still present in a considerable part of the British public, towards the Germans. My advice would be to let it go, it was a long time ago. There is no need for songs about German bombers etc; no need for goading them about the war ... No need for highly insulting covers on the Daily Mail and so on.

In this respect the Passendale centennial was quite a missed opportunity. Quite a one-sided affair with little reflection. The commemoration of the battle of Verdun was a whole other ballgame; a very strong signal and lesson.

Well, that's it with Brexit, especially for the older generation. I think it was Farage who says "we've won the war, now we've got to win the peace" after the vote - and that's what it is to them; a war. A game. This nostalgic look back at the British Empire and we have to beat the Germans to get everything "back to the way it was".

That's why we never have had and never will have an actual, factual, logical reason for leaving the EU on the grounds of the economy etc. because they're isn't such a reason. Just lie about how much we'll be better off and play up to the nationalist 'downtrodden masses' and hope pure hate and fear overwhelm the concept of scrutiny.

That's also why you get the ridiculousness of people saying in polls that being worse off and losing jobs is worth it for leaving, because these people are either retired and have no jobs at risk or their wealth squirrelled away, or are unemployed/lower class and feel they don't have much to lose. Add to that how much of a factor that our populace having a low level of education contributed to the stupid decision and you have the next generation of Britons absolutely screwed over by a combination of the uninformed, the misled, the blindly nostalgic and the racist.
 
Well, that's it with Brexit, especially for the older generation. I think it was Farage who says "we've won the war, now we've got to win the peace" after the vote - and that's what it is to them; a war. A game. This nostalgic look back at the British Empire and we have to beat the Germans to get everything "back to the way it was".

That's why we never have had and never will have an actual, factual, logical reason for leaving the EU on the grounds of the economy etc. because they're isn't such a reason. Just lie about how much we'll be better off and play up to the nationalist 'downtrodden masses' and hope pure hate and fear overwhelm the concept of scrutiny.

That's also why you get the ridiculousness of people saying in polls that being worse off and losing jobs is worth it for leaving, because these people are either retired and have no jobs at risk or their wealth squirrelled away, or are unemployed/lower class and feel they don't have much to lose. Add to that how much of a factor that our populace having a low level of education contributed to the stupid decision and you have the next generation of Britons absolutely screwed over by a combination of the uninformed, the misled, the blindly nostalgic and the racist.

Nailed it
 
Well, that's it with Brexit, especially for the older generation. I think it was Farage who says "we've won the war, now we've got to win the peace" after the vote - and that's what it is to them; a war. A game. This nostalgic look back at the British Empire and we have to beat the Germans to get everything "back to the way it was".

That's why we never have had and never will have an actual, factual, logical reason for leaving the EU on the grounds of the economy etc. because they're isn't such a reason. Just lie about how much we'll be better off and play up to the nationalist 'downtrodden masses' and hope pure hate and fear overwhelm the concept of scrutiny.

That's also why you get the ridiculousness of people saying in polls that being worse off and losing jobs is worth it for leaving, because these people are either retired and have no jobs at risk or their wealth squirrelled away, or are unemployed/lower class and feel they don't have much to lose. Add to that how much of a factor that our populace having a low level of education contributed to the stupid decision and you have the next generation of Britons absolutely screwed over by a combination of the uninformed, the misled, the blindly nostalgic and the racist.
Bang on the money mate, but don your crash helmet :)
 
Given that we're kinda pressed for time, and you (and others) made it quite clear that leave campaigners weren't required to have a thought out plan whilst campaigning to leave, are you happy with the progress the government has made in that time?
Spot the difference

e8450c0e-6adc-11e7-b9c7-15af748b60d0


Says it all..............
 
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-...re-that-could-ultimately-derail-brexit-2017-8

LONDON — The question of what happens to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland after Brexit is so difficult to solve that it could ultimately derail Brexit.

Even more than the rights of EU citizens and the size of the UK's Brexit divorce bill, the Northern Irish border is so contentious, and so politically dangerous to tackle, that there may, in the end, be no viable solution.

If Theresa May's Brexit vision is destined to fail, then this could be the one issue that triggers it.

So why does the Irish border matter so much?
The border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland is currently more or less invisible. There are no border controls meaning goods and people move freely to and from the neighbouring countries.

However, Brexit creates complications. When the UK officially leaves the EU in March 2019, Northern Ireland will be removed from the 28-nation bloc alongside England, Wales and Scotland. The Republic of Ireland, on the other hand, will remain an EU member state.

Why does this matter?
Well, if May sticks to her current plans to leave the customs union, then there will need to be some form of new border controls between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, in order to avoid smuggling between the UK and EU.

The European Union's chief Brexit negotiator Michel Barnier has previously warned that "frictionless trade" is "not possible" following Brexit.

This is deeply important to the UK economy. A House of Lords report published in December said that €60 billion is traded between the UK and Ireland each year, and an estimated 30,000 people cross the Irish border every day. A hard border would put this at risk.

However, the political impact on the Northern Ireland peace process could be much greater.

Surely this won't actually threaten peace in Northern Ireland?
It might. The Good Friday Agreement of 1998 relied heavily on membership of the European Union, with free movement between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland a key part of that.

Brexit will upset this delicate balance of power in the region and risk, as John Major has warned, the return of the "hard men" to Northern Ireland.

"People regard the peace process, that was very hard-earned [as certain]," he warned earlier this year.

"People shouldn't regard it as a given. It is uncertain, it is under stress, it is fragile."

As Irish columnist Fintan O'Toole wrote, Brexit means that "English nationalists have planted a bomb under the settlement that brought peace to Northern Ireland."

So what are the options for the border after Brexit?
1. Technology
Theresa May's government has pushed for a technological solution to the border, like the one between Norway and Sweden.

This would mean that vehicles would not have to stop at the border, and it could be monitored remotely.

However, as the Irish foreign minister, Simon Coveney told a meeting of EU foreign affairs ministers last month: "What we do not want to pretend is that we can solve the problems of the border on the island of Ireland through technical solutions like cameras and pre-registration and so on. That is not going to work.

"Any barrier or border on the island of Ireland in my view risks undermining a very hard-won peace process and all of the parties in Northern Ireland, whether they are unionist or nationalist, recognise that we want to keep the free movement of people and goods and services and livelihoods."

There are alternatives, however.

2. Using the sea as a border like it's the Middle Ages all over again
One solution reportedly under consideration by The Irish government is for the Irish sea to become the border between Ireland and the UK, allowing the island of Ireland to become one customs zone.

However, the UK government is not keen. Brexit secretary David Davis told MPs last year that he "did not see [a sea border] would be the solution."

Sir Jeffrey Donaldson, a senior DUP MP also said that his party "would be strongly opposed to the idea that you would create a border in the Irish sea between the island of Ireland and Great Britain."

This is important as 10 DUPs are currently partners with May's Conservative government in a confidence and supply deal in Westminster. Any threat to this informal coalition could bring down the government.

A sea border would also push both parts of Ireland together in what would be seen as a victory by those who want a united Ireland, but a failure for unionists, who would see it as Northern Ireland moving away from the UK.

3.Continuity
UK and EU officials have both said that they want to continue the Common Travel Area, which has meant that British and Irish citizens can travel between the two countries unrestricted since 1922.

How this would be managed is unclear, as any kind of open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland would mean that the UK would still have an open border with the EU, making stopping free movement impossible.

However, it would be possible if May's government decides to change course on the customs union.

Daniel Mulhall, the outgoing Irish ambassador to the UK said that he hoped that the UK would stay in the customs union.

He told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Friday: "Ideally, we would like to see the UK remain in the customs union. That would solve many of the problems that arise."

"Ideally we would wish Britain to remain in the EU, that’s not going to happen, we’d like Britain to remain in the single market, that may not happen," he said.

"But we think putting forward our view that remaining in the customs union would resolve many of the issues on the isle of Ireland that seems to us a practical solution."

On Friday, the Irish Taoiseach suggested that a new UK-EU customs union could be the way forward.

There is, of course, one other solution.

4. A hard border
If the UK and the EU do not find a solution to the Irish border, there may have to be a return to a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland for the first time in twenty years.

It appears that neither the Irish nor the British governments want this to happen, with Davis telling a Lords select committee that "no one wants to go back to the hard border."

A hard border would interrupt trade between the UK and Ireland, but also communities and people's everyday lives, as goods and people are checked as they cross the border.

O'Toole told the Guardian: "The notion that you would even consider implementing a hard border here again seems ludicrous. It is not just that it was so porous even when it was heavily policed, but that it would be read here as the British government not giving a damn about the legacy of the Troubles and the terrific progress of the years since the Good Friday agreement."

Irish socialist Eamonn McCann said that he estimated a hard border would require 10,000 guards, on which he remarked: "Never mind the cost; that would mean there would be 10,000 sitting ducks along the border."

So nobody wants a hard border, but we may have to have one, and even if we don't, we will need to create some new form of not-hard, but not-soft border that hasn't actually been invented yet?
Basically, yes.

This doesn't sound good.
It really doesn't. In fact, unless the UK and Ireland can resolve this question, then Brexit negotiations could come to a grinding halt before they've even got going.
 
This doesn't sound good.
It really doesn't. In fact, unless the UK and Ireland can resolve this question, then Brexit negotiations could come to a grinding halt before they've even got going.
All the pro brexit folk on here have had arguments for how the markets might work after brexit, how immigration might work, visas, fisheries, tourism etc. etc. but not one has had anything to say about how to resolve the situation of the land border. In fact they voted for brexit knowing full well that there is no solution to the land border issue. They just didn't think it was a big deal. Short sighted if you ask me.
 
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