Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Bruce Wayne]

Re: the science part - it's a lot easier when a lot of the research is EU funded and experts from all over can come over with no problems.

Indeed, and I think Oxford have already setup a satellite facility in Paris (I think) to help them get around any issues and ensure they retain access to Horizon 2020 funding. You've got areas such as the European Medicines Agency as well, and they'll obviously have to leave London once Brexit is concluded. Hopefully they'll figure something out, but there has to be a fear that given the short timeframe and the apparent lack of work to date, that the government will throw some sweeteners to politically expedient sectors (agriculture or motoring for instance), and leave others to swing in the breeze.

 

[Clint Planet]

Let the negotiations begin - I have a horrible feeling it will drag on so much so the EU will be in crisis before we walk away!
the elections in france and Germany will have a big say in our brexit!

Aye, the biggest fear in all of this, I suppose, is that a future European war is a possibility again. One of THE biggest pluses about the EU was the near impossibility of major European wars.

 

[JonS]

And this was one of the greatest pieces of backstabbing skulduggery that the UK politicians ever came up with, allowing our commonwealth friends to be replaced by the Europeans ........

Our Commonwealth friends. Who we conquered and ruthlessly exploited for centuries.

As for "the Europeans," many of us feel a much keener affinity with our European brothers than we do with some vague Imperial comfort blanket.

Some African (Nigerian and Ghanian) colleagues where I work were the other day discussing the state of African countries and the severe corruption in them in particular.

I suggested to them that the past collonialism by Britain and other European countries probably hadn't helped them and was at least partly responsible.

One of them replied "Please..!" saying that the countries could no longer use collonialism as an excuse and that they actually thought things were better under the British Empire.

Personally I'd like to see us become truly internationalist and broader than the comfort blankets of both the EU (nice, mostly white people like most of us) or the Commonwealth countries (imperial comfort blanket)

 

[DualityNSNO]

Indeed, and I think Oxford have already setup a satellite facility in Paris (I think) to help them get around any issues and ensure they retain access to Horizon 2020 funding. You've got areas such as the European Medicines Agency as well, and they'll obviously have to leave London once Brexit is concluded. Hopefully they'll figure something out, but there has to be a fear that given the short timeframe and the apparent lack of work to date, that the government will throw some sweeteners to politically expedient sectors (agriculture or motoring for instance), and leave others to swing in the breeze.

Not only them, Edinburgh, Glasgow (+Strathclyde) have setup programs with foreign European universities/institutions. Loads of top researches and stuff are done with help from them, professors and all flying in for a few days to help with something. With having to apply for a permit (of some sort, assuming it exists) that will, at the least, make the whole process slower and costlier.

 

[Ruairi77]

Again funny buy very simplistic and quite possible to write a similar thing in reverse.

Not sure if you are from UK in US or just from US but either way (excuse lecture) this is not like a US state leaving the US but is a country or countries that have existed for hundreds and thousands of tears as sovereign country(s) choosing to leave what has in a few years existence moved from a simple trade agreement gradually, almost imperceptably and (I would say) undemocratically into a superstate or what the intention is will effectively be one large country.

During those years many other countries (of increasingly disparate nature) have been encorporated into this ever closer union.

None of that itself necessarily makes Brexit intelligent or stupid but rather than the UK over reacting as you suggest I think of Brexit as an incredibly sane action to a union that is almost certainly doomed to failure and eventual dismantling (I give it 10-30 years before it ceases to exist completely).

Even now it sounds like you (and others) assume the benefits (economic or otherwise) of being in the EU exceed the drawbacks. Well at the moment no one can say for certain which is best but we all have our opinions on this which is why we voted as we did.

For me the union of states that make up the US is the exception that proves the rule that large unions eventually break up (usually when they get too large).

I'm aware that I might sound patronising to you if you are a US citizen so apologies if I do come across that way.

Sorry, didn't get to this yesterday.
I dont see the EU as being similar to the US. Simply because no one in Europe has ever wanted that. I have lived and worked all over Europe and never met one person who considers themselves European before their national identity. This is not a trend that is changing. Europe will not become one super state because the constituent members don't want that. Pre Maastricht, Nice, and Lisbon, everyone warned about the threat of a super state. It has never materialized and is showing no signs of doing so. As soon as I see someone flying an EU flag outside their house or considering themselves European first, I'll change that opinion, but for now it's worrying about a hypothetical.

I dont agree that Brexit is a sane reaction to the possibility that the EU might dissolve in 30 years. Infact to me, that's the definition of over reaction.
As for benefits and drawbacks, true, we can't say which situation is better but it's a huge and selfish gamble.

I constantly mention the border with the south and the threat of the renewal of the troubles. This is a huge drawback to Brexit and in my opinion, wasn't given full consideration by those who voted to leave.

"For me the union of states that make up the US is the exception that proves the rule that large unions eventually break up". What about the likes of the UK or Germany?

The way I see it, Cameron foolishly used Brexit as a political tool to suppress upstart back benchers. Farage saw a gap and took it. Fear was used to blame the EU for all the countries domestic woes. Now Theresa May is left holding the baby and she has to turn to the likes of Trump, who is focused on inward economics, as an international economic partner.

I hope it works out but it could have been so much easier if the UK didn't throw all her toys out of the pram!

 

[DualityNSNO]

Sorry, didn't get to this yesterday.
I dont see the EU as being similar to the US. Simply because no one in Europe has ever wanted that. I have lived and worked all over Europe and never met one person who considers themselves European before their national identity. This is not a trend that is changing. Europe will not become one super state because the constituent members don't want that. Pre Maastricht, Nice, and Lisbon, everyone warned about the threat of a super state. It has never materialized and is showing no signs of doing so. As soon as I see someone flying an EU flag outside their house or considering themselves European first, I'll change that opinion, but for now it's worrying about a hypothetical.

I dont agree that Brexit is a sane reaction to the possibility that the EU might dissolve in 30 years. Infact to me, that's the definition of over reaction.
As for benefits and drawbacks, true, we can't say which situation is better but it's a huge and selfish gamble.

I constantly mention the border with the south and the threat of the renewal of the troubles. This is a huge drawback to Brexit and in my opinion, wasn't given full consideration by those who voted to leave.

"For me the union of states that make up the US is the exception that proves the rule that large unions eventually break up". What about the likes of the UK or Germany?

The way I see it, Cameron foolishly used Brexit as a political tool to suppress upstart back benchers. Farage saw a gap and took it. Fear was used to blame the EU for all the countries domestic woes. Now Theresa May is left holding the baby and she has to turn to the likes of Trump, who is focused on inward economics, as an international economic partner.

I hope it works out but it could have been so much easier if the UK didn't throw all her toys out of the pram!

Well said Rooree.

 

[peteblue]

Our Commonwealth friends. Who we conquered and ruthlessly exploited for centuries.

As for "the Europeans," many of us feel a much keener affinity with our European brothers than we do with some vague Imperial comfort blanket.

Our European brothers whom we have been fighting for centuries, with whom we fought 2 world wars, who all speak different languages and who now threaten the U.K. for having the temerity to want to leave their politicised club. I'll stick with our commonwealth friends thank you......

 

[peteblue]

Explain?

It has been heavily trailed by various EU individuals that the EU will demand a sum of £50-60Bn for the UK to leave the EU. There is of course no provision in any EU agreements or in law that we need to pay anything.......we are and remain a piggy bank for the EU......

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It has been heavily trailed by various EU individuals that the EU will demand a sum of £50-60Bn for the UK to leave the EU. There is of course no provision in any EU agreements or in law that we need to pay anything.......we are and remain a piggy bank for the EU......

I was under the impression this figure was to honour agreements we had already made?

 

[JonS]

Sorry, didn't get to this yesterday.
I dont see the EU as being similar to the US. Simply because no one in Europe has ever wanted that. I have lived and worked all over Europe and never met one person who considers themselves European before their national identity. This is not a trend that is changing. Europe will not become one super state because the constituent members don't want that. Pre Maastricht, Nice, and Lisbon, everyone warned about the threat of a super state. It has never materialized and is showing no signs of doing so. As soon as I see someone flying an EU flag outside their house or considering themselves European first, I'll change that opinion, but for now it's worrying about a hypothetical.

I dont agree that Brexit is a sane reaction to the possibility that the EU might dissolve in 30 years. Infact to me, that's the definition of over reaction.
As for benefits and drawbacks, true, we can't say which situation is better but it's a huge and selfish gamble.

I constantly mention the border with the south and the threat of the renewal of the troubles. This is a huge drawback to Brexit and in my opinion, wasn't given full consideration by those who voted to leave.

"For me the union of states that make up the US is the exception that proves the rule that large unions eventually break up". What about the likes of the UK or Germany?

The way I see it, Cameron foolishly used Brexit as a political tool to suppress upstart back benchers. Farage saw a gap and took it. Fear was used to blame the EU for all the countries domestic woes. Now Theresa May is left holding the baby and she has to turn to the likes of Trump, who is focused on inward economics, as an international economic partner.

I hope it works out but it could have been so much easier if the UK didn't throw all her toys out of the pram!

I respectfully disagree with you that the EU is not becoming a superstate (EU army proposed now).

Totally agree with you about Ireland though and I think that resolving that situation should be the number one priority as I like you would hate to see a resumption of troubles. Of course I could say if Eire would leave the EU with us it would help resolve the situation, but they shouldn't have to go against their own wishes in the same way that the UK shouldn't. I don't know the answer but it is perhaps the only issue that gives me any regret about Brexit.

Regarding Farage, Cameron etc frankly I don't care of all the ins and outs, just that there was a referendum which IMO was a totally valid thing to have for an important constitutional issue we have effectively never had the chance to vote on before.

Not sure what you mean when you mention what about UK and Germany when talking about union?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I respectfully disagree with you that the EU is not becoming a superstate (EU army proposed now).

Totally agree with you about Ireland though and I think that resolving that situation should be the number one priority as I like you would hate to see a resumption of troubles. Of course I could say if Eire would leave the EU with us it would help resolve the situation, but they shouldn't have to go against their own wishes in the same way that the UK shouldn't. I don't know the answer but it is perhaps the only issue that gives me any regret about Brexit.

Regarding Farage, Cameron etc frankly I don't care of all the ins and outs, just that there was a referendum which IMO was a totally valid thing to have for an important constitutional issue we have effectively never had the chance to vote on before.

Not sure what you mean when you mention what about UK and Germany when talking about union?

I wonder if the EU army thing is a bit of a fudge. Obviously Germany is the biggest economy in the EU, yet their constitution would make them building up a military to reflect their size would perhaps make many feel rather nervous. If the army was an EU one, they can do so via that, and there's less concern that Germany may be coveting Strasbourg again.

 

[Ruairi77]

I respectfully disagree with you that the EU is not becoming a superstate (EU army proposed now).

Totally agree with you about Ireland though and I think that resolving that situation should be the number one priority as I like you would hate to see a resumption of troubles. Of course I could say if Eire would leave the EU with us it would help resolve the situation, but they shouldn't have to go against their own wishes in the same way that the UK shouldn't. I don't know the answer but it is perhaps the only issue that gives me any regret about Brexit.

Regarding Farage, Cameron etc frankly I don't care of all the ins and outs, just that there was a referendum which IMO was a totally valid thing to have for an important constitutional issue we have effectively never had the chance to vote on before.

Not sure what you mean when you mention what about UK and Germany when talking about union?

Both the UK and Germany are countries made up of smaller states that were independent or under different rule at some stage, just like the States.

 

[JonS]

Both the UK and Germany are countries made up of smaller states that were independent or under different rule at some stage, just like the States.

Thanks. Re the UK and Germany - I am not sure how long their respective unions have been in existence but isn't it much longer than the EU (which sort of proves my point though I guess it could back up your point too!)

I would say the major difference though is the size of the EU. IMO the larger and more disparate it gets the harder to hold everything together politically and economically as the members needs start to differ

 

[1966efc]

Thanks. Re the UK and Germany - I am not sure how long their respective unions have been in existence but isn't it much longer than the EU (which sort of proves my point though I guess it could back up your point too!)

I would say the major difference though is the size of the EU. IMO the larger and more disparate it gets the harder to hold everything together politically and economically as the members needs start to differ

For the little it's worth, the U K can be looked on as the Plantagenet empire ... about 800 years old. Varying degrees of independence for Scotland and Ireland before more formal Acts were introduced in later years.

Impressive it's hung together for as long as it has.

 

[peteblue]

I wonder if the EU army thing is a bit of a fudge. Obviously Germany is the biggest economy in the EU, yet their constitution would make them building up a military to reflect their size would perhaps make many feel rather nervous. If the army was an EU one, they can do so via that, and there's less concern that Germany may be coveting Strasbourg again.

Germany has been living off the back of the U.K. and the USA since the end of the war. In the 1950's we forgave their debt and had UK and USA military personnel stationed in Germany for years, paying into their economy. They pay just over 1% of their GDP into the military when the U.K. pays over 2% and the USA nearly 4% of a massive GDP. Germany has had a free ride for 60-70 years and now has the EU subsidising it's economy and keeping its currency artificially low. I agree with Trump. They owe the US and U.K. Zillions for the defence and financial forgiveness that was afforded to them, while it nearly bankrupted ourselves. If Russia wishes to invade Germany who will they look to, the US and U.K.......