Current Affairs EU In or Out
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peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
It's always worth reminding folks. The problem is that people of my age grew up understanding and seeing the people who actually fought and suffered, the families who lived through an austerity that people of today cannot even begin to understand, to pay for the sacrifice. There are too many younger folk who just take all this peace for granted, or even worse give the credit to the EU, when the reality is about brave men and women who died for us and not the bureaucrats behind comfy desks in Brussels.........
I'm not sure that's fair though. We have to remember that the second war started just 30 years after the first, with the two intrinsically linked. We also have to remember that the fall out of WW2 was massive. It didn't help secure peace between India and Pakistan, for instance, or in the Middle East. The war didn't secure freedom to the people of eastern Europe for another 40 years.
The idea that war secures lasting peace isn't really born out by history. Peace is secured by realising that other people aren't your enemy.
1966efc
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I see your point and, to a large extent, I agree. I have two things to qualify this: by far the oddest thing about the campaign (and even Cameron got a bit confused and 'backtracky' about it), was the notion that the E U had a direct impact on peace in Europe for an undefined period between unnamed countries. Hogwash. Happy to explain this epithet to an who question it.
My second point goes back to motivation for Leavers / rise of rightist stuf etc.
Sometime back in the 1870's, German philosophers gave voice to something hich had previously been assumed as a given: that nations have an identity.
I'd suggest that this "Psychology of National Identity" has ;played a huge part (albeit at a subconscious level) in recent events.
From birth to death, we are soaked / saturated in public statements of "Who we are" - in U K, e g, we have every war film, Poppy Day, Last Night At the Proms, place names (WATERLOO Station, TRAFALGAR Square etc), Anglican churches draped in military flags, the history courses in primary / secondary schools, and God knows how many other expressions of natiional identity stated both openly and insinuated. How many people going to work / school this morning will pass a War Memorial?
And, of course, the poorer you are, the more likely you are to grab at some sort of sense of personal worth by catching hold of this "We are winners" because winning isn't going to happen in your own life.
So U K is the one nation where the European project never caught fire. Why? Look at the sense of national identity in virtually all other countries. "Winning" isn't the word you would first pluck from the dictionary. For God knows how many years, my own country defined itself on the basis of its struggle with the Brits. Do I really need to lay out what other European countries have been through for the past 2, 3 or 4 hundred years to see what they get out of a major, unifying project?
Foot Long Hot Dog
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Victim response haha #standard
I've read the exchange hence the reason I posted about it, and you went off on a tangent and completely avoided the point he was making, and instead merely posed a question as a retort, then when challenged gave a limp response about a lack of understanding which you've just repeated to me.
Tiresome indeed.
Old Blue 2
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Completely wrong, FLHD.
This was what I replied to, in case you couldn't be arsed to look back through the thread: "...Without being too provocative, I'd also question the reasoning of 'some of' the people who voted for it..." 'it' being voting to 'Leave'.
So I turned it around on the poster, and said the same could be applied to those who voted 'Remain'.
If you can't follow that simple sequence, that's your problem, not mine.
In simple, stark, terms, you are too quick to attack anyone who hold a contrary view/opinion to yours, and you have attacked every post I have made in recent time in this thread. Pathetic really, but I find it quite amusing to read your twisted logic on matters...
Foot Long Hot Dog
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Posted without a hint of irony lol
You've still completely ignored his actual point, well done
Well the queen has given royal assent .
Over to you PM
Over to you PM
Old Blue 2
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Not at all. I answered his main point, by saying the same argument could be levelled at Remainers. What he then gave was an example. There IS a difference, but you obviously cannot see it.
No point really. All you want to do is argue. Every time. Without fail. You're just digging yourself a bigger hole. Hilarious...
Foot Long Hot Dog
Player Valuation: A packet of pork scratchings
Anyone who counters your flimsy garbage gets rounded on with a mixture of aggressive put downs and faux superiority.
You've still ignored his point btw, as his example was specific, just answering with nonsense whataboutery isn't answering nor countering his point.
Old Blue 2
Player Valuation: £40m
First paragraph, utter rubbish. You simply argue with anyone who voted 'Leave', and you also don't like anyone having a different opinion to yours.
Second paragraph. Let me lay it out for you. This is what was posted by tadao: "...2. Without being too provocative, I'd also question the reasoning of 'some of' the people who voted for it e.g. an interviewee stating immigration as a reason for voting 'leave' but, then listing the 'European' countries that he didn't mind immigrants coming from!..." So, in bold is what I replied to, viz, he questioned the reasoning of of some of the people who voted 'Leave'. In the second half of the sentence he went on to give a singular example from one person out of 17 and a half million.
I then posted in reply to '2' above (that is, the part I have set in bold and underlined above): "...2. One might turn this point on its head, and question why some of the people who voted Remain did so..."
Now, is it too difficult to correlate my point '2' with his point '2'? In other words, placing things on an equal footing in that one might equally question the reasoning of those who voted Remain as well as those who voted 'Leave'.
If you cannot see the simple logic of that, then there's nothing more I can say on the subject.
Foot Long Hot Dog
Player Valuation: A packet of pork scratchings
It's a debate about Brexit, of course I disagree with those who argue that it's somehow a great result for the UK, as I think it's completely the converse.
Unlike you though, I will debate using reasoned argument, not simply hyperbole, invective and whataboutery.
His question was about the motives of 'some' and he used a specific example to highlight the particular issue in question i.e. immigration. You merely ignored his point and said 'what about the motives of some of the remainers?' which completely avoided any discussion on the immigration motive of many Leave voters, which was his point.
We live in a consumer lead economy, which is driven by consumption. Our growth in recent years has been aided by immigrants and their net contribution to both the Treasury purse and the country's GDP. Tadao's specific point was one I can relate to, I've heard plenty complaining about supposed excessive immigration, but when drawn on it don't have a universal dislike of EU migrants, their ire seems to be confined to those from specific countries, which is imo based on stereotyping and right wing media guff in the main, as opposed to either factual or even anecdotal personal experience.
I note that unemployment is now at it's lowest level for 40 years......odd that.
Old Blue 2
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"...Unlike you though, I will debate using reasoned argument, not simply hyperbole, invective and whataboutery..."
Again, you lay accusations on me.
The example he gave is perfectly valid, as it would be foolish to believe that there are not some in this country who think that immigration is a major problem. And some will feed on that. What is not explained at any length is the local impact of a sudden influx. The argument of those against such sudden influxes into an area is that the Government seem happy to sanction such things without providing the financial back-up to support it. That is what sticks in the craw of many who are against it - the sudden, additional, burden on the local economy without the resouces to support it. It's well-known what the arguments are: the additional strain on housing, medical services, and such like. What we are seeing from this Government is real-time cuts in funding across a whole host of areas. The crisis in the prisons is one example. Police funding and staffing is another. Nurses/Doctors staffing is another (look at the performance of Hunt in recent times - his attitude beggars belief). So from all I have written, I am NOT against immigration. It was, for me, nothing in my overall consideration on which way to vote. But one must look at both sides of any situation, and I freely admit that the Leave campaign rode heavily on certain questionable issues, but then so did the Remain campaign in equal measure. THAT is my point. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from now, FLHD.
Again, you lay accusations on me.
The example he gave is perfectly valid, as it would be foolish to believe that there are not some in this country who think that immigration is a major problem. And some will feed on that. What is not explained at any length is the local impact of a sudden influx. The argument of those against such sudden influxes into an area is that the Government seem happy to sanction such things without providing the financial back-up to support it. That is what sticks in the craw of many who are against it - the sudden, additional, burden on the local economy without the resouces to support it. It's well-known what the arguments are: the additional strain on housing, medical services, and such like. What we are seeing from this Government is real-time cuts in funding across a whole host of areas. The crisis in the prisons is one example. Police funding and staffing is another. Nurses/Doctors staffing is another (look at the performance of Hunt in recent times - his attitude beggars belief). So from all I have written, I am NOT against immigration. It was, for me, nothing in my overall consideration on which way to vote. But one must look at both sides of any situation, and I freely admit that the Leave campaign rode heavily on certain questionable issues, but then so did the Remain campaign in equal measure. THAT is my point. I hope you can understand where I'm coming from now, FLHD.
Fellas, this is tedious beyond belief. Might I suggest we move on?
Foot Long Hot Dog
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That's more like it, and I agree with all of it.
The 'blame the immigrants' mantra of the far right media and the likes of Farage ignored the root cause of the genuine issues caused by chronic under funding both in services and infrastructure. Unfortunately many bought it and it was the prime driver for Brexit, post Brexit they're going to disappointed, as the problems won't be miraculously solved and if we're going to trade our way back into the Black then we're going to need immigrants in order to achieve it.
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