Current Affairs EU In or Out

[Joey66]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034

• "The data confirms previous indications that local results were strongly associated with the educational attainment of voters - populations with lower qualifications were significantly more likely to vote Leave.

• The level of education had a higher correlation with the voting pattern than any other major demographic measure from the census

Bit more Googling required perhaps?

At the end of the day it was still an OUT vote nice Googling though Bruce

 

[Old Blue 2]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034

• "The data confirms previous indications that local results were strongly associated with the educational attainment of voters - populations with lower qualifications were significantly more likely to vote Leave.

• The level of education had a higher correlation with the voting pattern than any other major demographic measure from the census

Bit more Googling required perhaps?

Education does not = intelligence. I offer Cameron & Osbourne as prime examples. Case rested...

 

[The Cowboy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034

• "The data confirms previous indications that local results were strongly associated with the educational attainment of voters - populations with lower qualifications were significantly more likely to vote Leave.

• The level of education had a higher correlation with the voting pattern than any other major demographic measure from the census

Bit more Googling required perhaps?

What point are you trying to make, Bruce? Thick people vote leave, clever people vote remain?

How wonderfully narrow-minded and patronising. I expected better from you, tbh.

 

[Seanjd]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38762034

• "The data confirms previous indications that local results were strongly associated with the educational attainment of voters - populations with lower qualifications were significantly more likely to vote Leave.

• The level of education had a higher correlation with the voting pattern than any other major demographic measure from the census

Bit more Googling required perhaps?

Education does not = intelligence. I offer Cameron & Osbourne as prime examples. Case rested...

This data is very important and tells us that poorer areas, like Bruce has said, were hoodwinked into believing their problems lied with immigration. In fact, lack of jobs, lack of opportunity and lack of income had nothing to do with immigration.

That, coupled with the leave's immigration scare-mongering fuelled campaign really does point towards immigration being the main voting point. Of course, not the only, but almost certainly the main.

There is no doubt in my mind that politicians knew exactly where their chances of leaving the EU lay - immigration. And it worked because of the demonisation of immigrants from press and politicians over the last ten years or so.

 

[Seanjd]

What point are you trying to make, Bruce? Thick people vote leave, clever people vote remain?

How wonderfully narrow-minded and patronising. I expected better from you, tbh.

What do you think those statistics show? You said thick people vote leave and clever people vote remain.

Poorer areas have fewer graduates, correct?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

What point are you trying to make, Bruce? Thick people vote leave, clever people vote remain?

How wonderfully narrow-minded and patronising. I expected better from you, tbh.

Just sharing the data. Cities tend to have more graduates, and cities tended to vote remain. That is one of the points of exploration, that people in smaller towns that voted leave, did so because the benefits of globalisation have tended to be concentrated in cities, as that is where most of the talent is concentrated.

As Ken Clarke himself said last week, it's been something generations of governments have grappled with (unsuccessfully): how to spread the wealth of London et al to towns like Hartlepool.

Lets assume that the leave vote wasn't racist and more down to a lack of economic opportunities. Now if we take as read the data obtained by the BBC that Hartlepool et al are typically less well qualified, then you've either got to train a whole bunch of people in a way you've never been able to before, or bring back a whole bunch of low(er) skilled work.

I'm not sure the former is feasible, as it's been tried ever since compulsory schooling was introduced nearly 100 years ago. I also don't think there's a cat in hells chance of low skilled manufacturing coming back to developed countries. The work may come back, but it will be automated if it does so.

So all that's really left is the argument that 'poorly paid migrants' are undercutting the local labour force, and once they've gone, everything will be fine again. Not only do I not think that argument holds much water, it kinda ignores the long-standing economic malaise of towns like Hartlepool that long predate the free movement of people, and certainly predate the A8 countries gaining access. Surely if the problems existed before migration was a factor, then migration isn't the issue that needs to be addressed?

If we go with that basic assumption, I fail to see how on earth leaving the EU will help the good people of Hartlepool one bit.

Now you may say that there isn't much that can be done to bring good jobs to Hartlepool, in which case you may try and improve transport links so that people can travel elsewhere for work, or experiment with things like universal basic income to try and spread the gains of globalisation more widely, but neither of these things have anything to do with the EU. You may change how one governs to allow local authorities greater flexibility in response to population changes, or loosen up planning regulations to allow more houses to be built. Again though, nothing to do with the EU.

What is it that people from Boston or Hartlepool really expect to happen?

 

[Old Blue 2]

Just sharing the data. Cities tend to have more graduates, and cities tended to vote remain. That is one of the points of exploration, that people in smaller towns that voted leave, did so because the benefits of globalisation have tended to be concentrated in cities, as that is where most of the talent is concentrated.

As I said about statistics, Bruce, they can be shown to show anything.

To take your above point regarding graduates in cities, perhaps it just shows that cities, having more younger people, have people whose life-knowledge and experience is very small compared to older people, and therefore voted for the 'status quo', perhaps from a fear of the unknown. Perhaps from a resistance to change, given their young age.

My above point in the previous paragraph is equally as valid as anything you have ever said in this thread on the subject...

 

[The Cowboy]

Just sharing the data. Cities tend to have more graduates, and cities tended to vote remain. That is one of the points of exploration, that people in smaller towns that voted leave, did so because the benefits of globalisation have tended to be concentrated in cities, as that is where most of the talent is concentrated.

As Ken Clarke himself said last week, it's been something generations of governments have grappled with (unsuccessfully): how to spread the wealth of London et al to towns like Hartlepool.

Lets assume that the leave vote wasn't racist and more down to a lack of economic opportunities. Now if we take as read the data obtained by the BBC that Hartlepool et al are typically less well qualified, then you've either got to train a whole bunch of people in a way you've never been able to before, or bring back a whole bunch of low(er) skilled work.

I'm not sure the former is feasible, as it's been tried ever since compulsory schooling was introduced nearly 100 years ago. I also don't think there's a cat in hells chance of low skilled manufacturing coming back to developed countries. The work may come back, but it will be automated if it does so.

So all that's really left is the argument that 'poorly paid migrants' are undercutting the local labour force, and once they've gone, everything will be fine again. Not only do I not think that argument holds much water, it kinda ignores the long-standing economic malaise of towns like Hartlepool that long predate the free movement of people, and certainly predate the A8 countries gaining access. Surely if the problems existed before migration was a factor, then migration isn't the issue that needs to be addressed?

If we go with that basic assumption, I fail to see how on earth leaving the EU will help the good people of Hartlepool one bit.

Bruce, why do you continually ruin perfectly good posts with incendiary crap? 'let's assume the leave vote wasn't racist'? Being upset by a lack of opportunity and believing that a curb on immigration might change that is NOT racist. It might be ill-informed or poorly thought out, but I don't think you really know what it feels like to have no prospects (fortunately neither do I, but I don't go making wild assumptions about the reason folk voted).

The scatter graph you've posted clearly shows a trend for one specific factor. One specific factor cannot be taken in isolation as the defining reason why the UK voted the way they did.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Bruce, why do you continually ruin perfectly good posts with incendiary crap? 'let's assume the leave vote wasn't racist'? Being upset by a lack of opportunity and believing that a curb on immigration might change that is NOT racist. It might be ill-informed or poorly thought out, but I don't think you really know what it feels like to have no prospects (fortunately neither do I, but I don't go making wild assumptions about the reason folk voted).

The scatter graph you've posted clearly shows a trend for one specific factor. One specific factor cannot be taken in isolation as the defining reason why the UK voted the way they did.

Because a lot of the rhetoric from Farage, and his sister movements in America and across Europe, have had huge dollops of it. I'm giving leave voters the benefit of the doubt that they ignored that and voted for other reasons. The point remains though, how will leaving the EU help the people of Boston or Clacton?

 

[roydo]

Bruce, why do you continually ruin perfectly good posts with incendiary crap? 'let's assume the leave vote wasn't racist'? Being upset by a lack of opportunity and believing that a curb on immigration might change that is NOT racist. It might be ill-informed or poorly thought out, but I don't think you really know what it feels like to have no prospects (fortunately neither do I, but I don't go making wild assumptions about the reason folk voted).

The scatter graph you've posted clearly shows a trend for one specific factor. One specific factor cannot be taken in isolation as the defining reason why the UK voted the way they did.

I think thats exactly what he meant mate. As in. Lets assume it wasnt racist.

 

[The Cowboy]

I think thats exactly what he meant mate. As in. Lets assume it wasnt racist.

Come off it, it was clearly a barb.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

As I said about statistics, Bruce, they can be shown to show anything.

To take your above point regarding graduates in cities, perhaps it just shows that cities, having more younger people, have people whose life-knowledge and experience is very small compared to older people, and therefore voted for the 'status quo', perhaps from a fear of the unknown. Perhaps from a resistance to change, given their young age.

My above point in the previous paragraph is equally as valid as anything you have ever said in this thread on the subject...

Regardless of your opinion on ones education and its merits, I suspect if you mapped the average income of Britain with voting patterns, those in the less well off areas would be more likely to vote leave. So my question remains, how will leaving help those people?

 

[The Cowboy]

Because a lot of the rhetoric from Farage, and his sister movements in America and across Europe, have had huge dollops of it. I'm giving leave voters the benefit of the doubt that they ignored that and voted for other reasons. The point remains though, how will leaving the EU help the people of Boston or Clacton?

How will remaining in the EU help the people of Boston or Clacton. That was never, ever put towards the people in those places.

I didn't see the Remain campaign ever really express why the EU was good, and worth staying in. Perhaps they should've tried that, instead of continually peddling their doom-mongery.

 

[roydo]

I didn't see the Remain campaign ever really express why the EU was good, and worth staying in. Perhaps they should've tried that, instead of continually peddling their doom-mongery.

Quite.

 

[Seanjd]

How will remaining in the EU help the people of Boston or Clacton. That was never, ever put towards the people in those places.

I didn't see the Remain campaign ever really express why the EU was good, and worth staying in. Perhaps they should've tried that, instead of continually peddling their doom-mongery.

Quite.

Let's pretend everybody who voted was informed enough and proactive enough to research their own reasons for leaving or remaining. Bruce's point is a good one. How will leaving the EU help people in places like Clacton?