Current Affairs EU In or Out

[The Esk]

@The Esk - and anyone else not bored to tears by this never ending thread: a quick look at the legitimacy of the referendum vote.

Appreciate your interest and the time taken in forming your reply mate.

A couple of things. When reading Hansard it becomes obvious that despite a number of ammendments suggested at various stages of the Bill's progression (the Referendum Bill) the Government sought not to make the outcome of the referendum binding as they did in 2011. Why was that?

Secondly the claim in the leaflet "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide" is a spurious claim as determined subsequently in the High Court and which is currently being debated in the Supreme Court.

I wish those MP's the majority of whom wish to remain in Europe had the courage of their convictions, and in the forthcoming votes on Brexit will vote in line with those convictions rather than being forced to vote for either because of the Party Whip or fear of electoral consequences created by the inevitable media driven storm that would occur thereafter.

 

[1966efc]

I confess, I passed this point long ago. I have come to the conclusion that we are governed by a load of oddballs who don't know what they're doing - and I include all parties/politicians in that.

 

[1966efc]

Appreciate your interest and the time taken in forming your reply mate.

A couple of things. When reading Hansard it becomes obvious that despite a number of ammendments suggested at various stages of the Bill's progression (the Referendum Bill) the Government sought not to make the outcome of the referendum binding as they did in 2011. Why was that?

Secondly the claim in the leaflet "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide" is a spurious claim as determined subsequently in the High Court and which is currently being debated in the Supreme Court.

I wish those MP's the majority of whom wish to remain in Europe had the courage of their convictions, and in the forthcoming votes on Brexit will vote in line with those convictions rather than being forced to vote for either because of the Party Whip or fear of electoral consequences created by the inevitable media driven storm that would occur thereafter.

I can only offer opinions.

Possible amendments: Because they didn't want a referendum to take place but were constrained by public opinion / Party manifesto pledge or a combination. Can anyone truly know the mind of anyone else?

Spurious: Not at the time it was written. Judgment(s) made afterwards may make it seem foolish. To the voter, it seemed clear enough. I'd offer the virtual total absence of any political / media comment on its 'spuriousness' as some supporting evidence.

Again, and it must seem as though I'm mounting some kind of campaign, I have to say that your opinions are evidently honest and deeply felt but that they are opinions. An assertion that the process was undemocratic is plain wrong.

 

[peteblue]

I don't want it to happen. So if the process has started (it hasn't) it needs reversing. If it hasn't started it need not to start.

That seems democratic enough....17,400,000 want to Leave, but Esk says we must remain. Must be a Mod thing, 'Power corrupts, absolute Power corrupts absolutely'.....

 

[1966efc]

That seems democratic enough....17,400,000 want to Leave, but Esk says we must remain. Must be a Mod thing, 'Power corrupts, absolute Power corrupts absolutely'.....

In troubled times like these are meant to be, maybe,

 

[peteblue]

Well let's hope this stops anymore nonsense of trying to block article 50 from the bulk of honest MP's (if such a thing actually exists). May is obviously calling their bluff, now the people who seriously want to stop article 50 being invoked will have no choice but to lay their cards on the table and show just how anti democratic they are. It will be interesting to see how many MP's decide to simply dismiss the will of 17.5million voters and the majority based on their own personal wish. We will soon see the true enemies of the people!

You can almost hear the remain supporters shouting "but it's not a binding vote".......mind you if it goes the other way it would be quite funny for us leave voters to quote the same thing for a change......

 

[peteblue]

In troubled times like these are meant to be, maybe,

View attachment 32064

My guess would be that she would look after number one......

 

[Moomin]

So a vote is taking place now, think this is a sign that they realise they are going to lose in the supreme court.

 

[Tubey]

Well let's hope this stops anymore nonsense of trying to block article 50 from the bulk of honest MP's (if such a thing actually exists). May is obviously calling their bluff, now the people who seriously want to stop article 50 being invoked will have no choice but to lay their cards on the table and show just how anti democratic they are. It will be interesting to see how many MP's decide to simply dismiss the will of 17.5million voters and the majority based on their own personal wish. We will soon see the true enemies of the people!

Nobody wants to block Article 50 being triggered though. They simply want it to follow due process.

What people do want to block is leaving on suicidal terms.

 

[peteblue]

I can only offer opinions.

Possible amendments: Because they didn't want a referendum to take place but were constrained by public opinion / Party manifesto pledge or a combination. Can anyone truly know the mind of anyone else?

Spurious: Not at the time it was written. Judgment(s) made afterwards may make it seem foolish. To the voter, it seemed clear enough. I'd offer the virtual total absence of any political / media comment on its 'spuriousness' as some supporting evidence.

Again, and it must seem as though I'm mounting some kind of campaign, I have to say that your opinions are evidently honest and deeply felt but that they are opinions. An assertion that the process was undemocratic is plain wrong.

"This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide".......can we ever believe anything written by any government ever again, or do we now always have to wait for the Courts to offer up a verdict.......it just shows the gradual erosion of standards and trust and consigns phrases such as 'An Englishman's word is his bond' into a well of anarchy..........

 

[peteblue]

Nobody wants to block Article 50 being triggered though. They simply want it to follow due process.

What people do want to block is leaving on suicidal terms.

But nobody, not one single person on this planet, will know what the terms are until we trigger article 50 then spend the next 1-2 years negotiating them......

 

[Tubey]

But nobody, not one single person on this planet, will know what the terms are until we trigger article 50 then spend the next 1-2 years negotiating them......

Exactly, that's why I said nobody is wanting to block Article 50. They just want the process of triggering it to follow due process through parliament, and then want parliament (or a referendum) to have a say on the terms of exit.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

But nobody, not one single person on this planet, will know what the terms are until we trigger article 50 then spend the next 1-2 years negotiating them......

Well, we know that the EU have categorically said the four freedoms aren't for cherry picking. I know it's suicidal for them to reveal their hand before negotiations or somesuch twaddle, but we do know that much. We also know that attempting to negotiate different rules with the WTO would be tantamount to insanity, so even if we go hard Brexit we're still going to be trading under the same rules we do now (but with no input into how they're made).

So there are some things we can say with high levels of certainty.

 

[peteblue]

Well, we know that the EU have categorically said the four freedoms aren't for cherry picking. I know it's suicidal for them to reveal their hand before negotiations or somesuch twaddle, but we do know that much. We also know that attempting to negotiate different rules with the WTO would be tantamount to insanity, so even if we go hard Brexit we're still going to be trading under the same rules we do now (but with no input into how they're made).

So there are some things we can say with high levels of certainty.

When we leave, we will do a simple agreement with WTO. Whatever we have already signed up for, we will just take that percentage and trade terms with us and the EU will then do exactly the same with their remaining percentage. From then on it is up to the UK,as a member of the WTO to agree any future terms with everybody else just as every other country does. The EU will be in exactly the same position.

In respect of negotiations, I too fully expect the EU to stick with its approach to movement and the single Market. But we will not be in the single Market, we shall merely want trading terms with another entity called the EU. We will wish to keep selling £220Bn (and reducing) of exports to the EU and the EU will wish to keep selling £290Bn (and increasing) of its exports to the UK. Whatever the deal is, WTO rules, or we pay to access the EU and they pay to access the UK, or Free Trade, either way trade will continue and will be equitable........

 

[joey_macmo]

People still putting more weight behind a leaflet than an act of parliament I see.