Current Affairs Donald Trump POS: Judgement cometh and that right soon

[Prevenger17]

It remains to be seen whether his macho rhetoric against North Korea was any more damaging than previous sanctions have been.

Tbh, it's impossible to say what effect he has had on NK relations. On the surface, he seems to have made them more paranoid and uncontrollable, but they weren't going to stop their buildup of nuclear arsenal anyway. I think Kim Jong-Un has the same sense of self preservation as any world leader, so his bluster may have concealed a genuine fear that Trump would turn his country into a crater. On that particular issue, we'll never really know until a nuke is dropped which, hopefully, is never.

With regards to damage he's done, it mostly pertains to the damage of America's international image, which is big or small depending on who you ask. I would rank the firing of Comey, some of his disastrous appointments, his hurricane relief efforts (better than Bush though!) and the emboldening of the fascist right as damaging. I don't think he's been the complete force of destruction he's painted as, just that he should be called on the things he gets wrong regardless of whether he's your man or not.

I'll just repost my initial reasoning for wanting the lad in office, and I think some of it has even held true. Particularly regarding the fact that he is completely hamstrung by both parties and seeing the Democrats in an utter state of disarray that looks to be leading to some proper introspection. Maybe the Republicans will follow suit. But while he's here, he needs to be held to a much higher standard than his supporters seem capable of imposing

They've been talking about change for how long now? It can't happen. Since the 90's it's been Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush, Obama, Obama (and make no mistake, that was supposed to be Clinton) and now they're setting it "right" with another Clinton. Sanders' problem wasn't a lack of mobilization, it was that the supposedly impartial DNC funded and favoured Hillary's campaign and bought off delegates. Gradual change won't happen while both parties control the game. Ron Paul mobilized grassroots support 4 years ago in the Republican primaries and they just changed the rules halfway through to prevent him from troubling the nomination (ironically the same rules which would go on to sweep Trump to victory 4 years later). Make no mistake, they won't let it happen again.

With regards to Trump, I think people severely overestimate the damage he could do. I reckon international relations would be strained, but I think the long term upshot of a Trump presidency outweighs the negatives. He'd be the first president that would have absolutely no support among the houses or either party. Obama had the support of the Democrats and he could barely do a thing. As near as I can tell, Trump would be almost completely ineffective.

What's important is the message. The two main parties have a monopoly on the political dialogue and will move mountains to ensure the likes of Sanders can't threaten that. Protests haven't worked. Decades of promises have yielded nothing. This is the American electorate's chance to make a radical statement that they may not be able to ignore. Start giving American people an actual choice. Stop sending out compromised puppets with no other purpose other than to prop up a blatantly ugly system.

It used to be the case that people were willing to undergo necessary hardships to express their point. Civil and women's rights weren't won by the middle class sitting back and fearing for their comfortable way of life. It's baffling to me that people, at once, cry about the severe inequality in the American political system, and then intend to go out and vote for Hillary.

On almost every occasion when it matters. It's ludicrously transparent but people are being cowed into believing Hillary is their only choice by a political structure and media who are basically cooperating. If I lived in the US, I would be absolutely fed up with the illusion of choice I was presented with and take this golden opportunity to force them into a rethink. It might not work, but it's better than being bent over for the bajillionth time, pretending you like it and telling them you'll see them in 4 years time

 

[dholliday]

- His failure to staff government departments, in particular the state department, is doing damage. He's visiting S.Korea but hasn't appointed an ambassador there yet.
- His EPA appointments are doing damage, there is a completely demoralized department and big business is calling the shots.
- His appointment of Betsy DeVoss is doing damage
- His targeting of Sanctuary cities is doing damage as undocumented victims of crime no longer go to police.
- His foreign policy stances are affecting the tourism industry.
- His lack of action on the LV shooter who shot over 500 people is causing damage.
- His stance on trans soldiers before talking to anyone in the military caused damage
- His disclosure of sensitive Israeli military information to Kislyak in the oval office caused damage.
- Rolling back his own condemnation on the Charlottesville attack caused damage.
- His failure to negotiate a suitable replacement and subsequent efforts to suffocate the ACA have caused damage.
- His continuing divisive attacks on Obama/Clinton/dems cause damage
- His firing of the head of the FBI and admitting on TV that it was an obstruction of justice caused damage
- His hamfisted handling of the deaths of 4 Soldiers in Niger caused damage
- His calling for the death penalty in the NY attack as well as Bergdal comments caused damage to any prosecution case
- His appointment of an AG who lied under oath at a Senate hearing caused damage
- His hiring and firing of his own senior WH staff causes damage

I could go on....

It's an impressive list and I applaud your effort, but you don't say what the damage was that was caused? You say these things caused damage, but what damage? It's also important to be able to identify this, otherwise it all remains quite debatable.

 

[Prevenger17]

I am skeptical of all reporting of civilian deaths from both Obama's and Trump's administration as they both have very significant motives to under-report. That is why I used airwars which I believe has less motive to fudge the numbers and as I understand it don't just use figures provided by the DoD but from a wide variety of sources in their reporting. Given the change in type of fighting against ISIS that is happening (urban centres) I'd be very surprised if the civilian death toll wasn't going up whoever was the Commander in Chief, that isn't a political assessment but one based on the military situation.

I used your own data source for the Afghanistan attacks to compare from 2017 to previous years, yet when it shows an increase in frequency of attacks under Trump you ignore that information, switch to Wikipedia (which unless I'm missing it doesn't have anything on 2017 figures) and then accuse me of being the one selectively looking for data!

As for the narrative, I believe that Obama was awful wrt drone strikes and their resultant civilian casualties but the intial indications are that Trump with be at least as bad if not worse (especially if the CIA get involved as rumored https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/trump-admin-wants-increase-cia-drone-strikes-n802311)

Indeed his campaign comments were that

Given all that I think that even if you are supportive of Trump expecting a reduction in deaths due to drone strikes under his admin an unusual one contradicted by his rhetoric and actions to date, as we get further data I guess we'll see.

Good reply, Legs.




It shows an increase in frequency of attacks, but so far the total death toll isn't as massive as under Obama. Granted, Trump is still only in his first year, and as you say later the indications are he will trump Obama in this horrible number, but until then it remains accurate (if arguably disingenuous) to say Trump has killed less Arabs than Obama.


I'm sure we're of the same opinion in that we want these strikes to end immediately. Killing unknown people without trial is wrong, full stop.

Personally, I don't think it's a stick you can beat either President with. The office of President looks so limited in reach, you'd wonder if any President could bring those numbers down even if they wanted to.

 

[dholliday]

Personally, I don't think it's a stick you can beat either President with. The office of President looks so limited in reach, you'd wonder if any President could bring those numbers down even if they wanted to.

Jimmy Carter could, he only lasted one term. Since then they've all bombed, even Bill Clinton was bombing Iraq on a regular basis for no clear reason. Sanders or Rand Paul may have, had they got in.

 

[Ruairi77]

You even say yourself it's "a small group" so how could it be "the main reason"?

I didn't say a small group voted for him, I said a small group were responsible for harnessing the discontent and anger at Obama's election and yea, I think there was a deep seeded racism connected to a lot of the vehement anti Obama rhetoric.
So no, I don't think the majority of trump voters are racist but I think the foundation on which the campaign was built might be
(I dunno why my font sizes are changing, sorry bout that)

I see Trumps whole birther thing as racist.

 

[abelard]

Trump has killed less Arabs than Obama.

And Unsworth has lost fewer matches than Howard Kendall. Great point.

considering how many voted for Trump who wouldn't consider themselves rightwing or racist.

I guess if you don't consider yourself racist, it's impossible that you might still be racist then. Sound.

Challenge for you: quote a post of mine which you consider wumming.

this, for starters - and I wasn't the only one

or that time you tried to argue that there was nothing racist about the AFD, before conceding that in fact all of their campaign posters were indeed overtly racist

your reputation precedes you, mate

off topic, so not going to post about this again

 

[verreauxi]

It's an impressive list and I applaud your effort, but you don't say what the damage was that was caused? You say these things caused damage, but what damage? It's also important to be able to identify this, otherwise it all remains quite debatable.

Regarding your challenge, this is definitely considered a borderline WUM comment in my view. Ruari77 posts a long list of damaging actions by Trump and you say "what the damage was that was caused?" Really? You clearly are able to look up databases on how many Arabs have been killed by Obama and other presidents. Similarly, you can look up any one of those points and find evidence of damage. It's very easy. Ruari doesn't need to do this for you. For starters google "Trump EPA."

 

[dholliday]

I didn't say a small group voted for him, I said a small group were responsible for harnessing the discontent and anger at Obama's election and yea, I think there was a deep seeded racism connected to a lot of the vehement anti Obama rhetoric.
So no, I don't think the majority of trump voters are racist but I think the foundation on which the campaign was built might be
(I dunno why my font sizes are changing, sorry bout that)

I see Trumps whole birther thing as racist.

I also didn't say a small group voted for him, but you did say the main reason Trump is in power because a small group harnessed racism. I disagree, for to think that such a small group can influence half the country is fanciful at best, and at worst disrespects the moral reasoning of half of your fellow countrymen. Tho' in Blighty, we also see that attitude in the Brexit debate, so I guess this black-&-white-ism is here to stay.

But in the real world, there are myriad other reasons why Trump got in. None of them racist.

I guess if you don't consider yourself racist, it's impossible that you might still be racist then. Sound.

It sounds like you consider all Trump voters racist. Do you think this is a reasonable opinion to have?

this, for starters - and I wasn't the only one

or that time you tried to argue that there was nothing racist about the AFD, before conceding that in fact all of their campaign posters were indeed overtly racist

your reputation precedes you, mate

Haha, quoting forum clique wars is only more echo chamber. And about the AfD, I didn't concede in the way you describe. Look at the wording you choose: "in fact all of their posters were overtly racist". That's not a thing I would say, it's a thing that you would generously paraphrase me saying.

That right there is one of the problems in modern debating. You think you need to inflate a point your opponent made to better bolster your own, but you inflate so much the original context is missing. You don't care because your narrative has been suited.

 

[dholliday]

Regarding your challenge, this is definitely considered a borderline WUM comment in my view. Ruari77 posts a long list of damaging actions by Trump and you say "what the damage was that was caused?" Really? You clearly are able to look up databases on how many Arabs have been killed by Obama and other presidents. Similarly, you can look up any one of those points and find evidence of damage. It's very easy. Ruari doesn't need to do this for you. For starters google "Trump EPA."

I disagree it's borderline WUM, I'm saying that in debate if you want to say X is damaging, and X is also damaging, then you would have to explain why you think that. It's not the opponent's prerogative to have to explain it for him.

 

[Ruairi77]

It's an impressive list and I applaud your effort, but you don't say what the damage was that was caused? You say these things caused damage, but what damage? It's also important to be able to identify this, otherwise it all remains quite debatable.

- His failure to staff government departments, in particular the state department, is doing damage. He's visiting S.Korea but hasn't appointed an ambassador there yet.
Damage caused: Short and long term international relations breakdown. Unnecessary resignation of overworked dept. staff.
- His EPA appointments are doing damage, there is a completely demoralized department and big business is calling the shots.
Damage done. Short term issues like the reintroduction of plastics to national parks causing pollution. Reintroduction of previously banned domestic chemicals which pose a health risk. Longer term denial of climate science will cause damage. Reversal of fossil fuel standards add to polution whether you believe in climate science or not.
- His appointment of Betsy DeVoss is doing damage
Damage - This is a personal opinion but the growth of charter schools is detrimental to general public schools and causes the poorer to get a poorer education. The emphasis of religion in education goes against what the founding fathers wanted.
- His targeting of Sanctuary cities is doing damage as undocumented victims of crime no longer go to police.
- His foreign policy stances are affecting the tourism industry.
Damage, financial and cultural.
- His lack of action on the LV shooter who shot over 500 people is causing damage.
Damage, his failure to speak out against Bump Stocks or use an executive order to ban them will cost lives.
- His stance on trans soldiers before talking to anyone in the military caused damage
Damage. Needlessly upsetting troops serving this country just to appeal to his base.
- His disclosure of sensitive Israeli military information to Kislyak in the oval office caused damage.
Damage. this one is self explanatory
- Rolling back his own condemnation on the Charlottesville attack caused damage.
Damage, again, no one could possibly question his poor reaction to charlottesville (except Nazis)
- His failure to negotiate a suitable replacement and subsequent efforts to suffocate the ACA have caused damage.
Damage. a huge cost hike in insurance because a deal can't be reached.
- His continuing divisive attacks on Obama/Clinton/dems cause damage
Damage. His inability to unite the legislative branch leads to intrenched division.
- His firing of the head of the FBI and admitting on TV that it was an obstruction of justice caused damage
Damage. Lack of trust, lack of respect for gov. agencies and clear stupidity.
- His hamfisted handling of the deaths of 4 Soldiers in Niger caused damage.
Damage. obvious
- His calling for the death penalty in the NY attack as well as Bergdal comments caused damage to any prosecution case
Damage. Harder for prosecution to bring the toughest cases.
- His appointment of an AG who lied under oath at a Senate hearing caused damage
Damage. Belittling of govt, institutions.
- His hiring and firing of his own senior WH staff causes damage
Damage. No continuity or confidence in his administration

 

[LinekersLegs]

Going to be interesting to see if the allegations of harassment have the same effect as similar claims did in UK politics.

 

[abelard]

It sounds like you consider all Trump voters racist.

^"That right there is one of the problems in modern debating. You think you need to inflate a point your opponent made to better bolster your own, but you inflate so much the original context is missing. You don't care because your narrative has been suited."

read the link I actually posted first

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

the main reason Trump is in power is because a small group managed to harness the power of the racial hatred generated by the Obama election in '08. They took this fervor, dressed it in a flag and gave it a bible.

So let's get this stright, you think Trump winning was down to racism and a backlash against Obama who won twice and got most of the swing voters that Clinton lost? A lot of the same people who voted for Obama twice decided to vote for Trump in 2016 because they were angry that the black guy won? That's one bizzare sense of racism America must have. "The black guy was ok by me for two elections but now im mad and this white lady, oh she's beyond the pale!"

Trump won because people didn't like Hillary Clinton, simple as that and no amount of spin will change it. Any other even half competent Democrat leader would of walked an election against Trump easily. FFS the guy said four or five things a week during that campaign that would of torpedoed anyone else's campaign and still Clinton lost! She is 100% the reason Donald Trump is President of the United States.

 

[abelard]

- His failure to staff government departments, in particular the state department, is doing damage. He's visiting S.Korea but hasn't appointed an ambassador there yet.
Damage caused: Short and long term international relations breakdown. Unnecessary resignation of overworked dept. staff.
- His EPA appointments are doing damage, there is a completely demoralized department and big business is calling the shots.
Damage done. Short term issues like the reintroduction of plastics to national parks causing pollution. Reintroduction of previously banned domestic chemicals which pose a health risk. Longer term denial of climate science will cause damage. Reversal of fossil fuel standards add to polution whether you believe in climate science or not.
- His appointment of Betsy DeVoss is doing damage
Damage - This is a personal opinion but the growth of charter schools is detrimental to general public schools and causes the poorer to get a poorer education. The emphasis of religion in education goes against what the founding fathers wanted.
- His targeting of Sanctuary cities is doing damage as undocumented victims of crime no longer go to police.
- His foreign policy stances are affecting the tourism industry.
Damage, financial and cultural.
- His lack of action on the LV shooter who shot over 500 people is causing damage.
Damage, his failure to speak out against Bump Stocks or use an executive order to ban them will cost lives.
- His stance on trans soldiers before talking to anyone in the military caused damage
Damage. Needlessly upsetting troops serving this country just to appeal to his base.
- His disclosure of sensitive Israeli military information to Kislyak in the oval office caused damage.
Damage. this one is self explanatory
- Rolling back his own condemnation on the Charlottesville attack caused damage.
Damage, again, no one could possibly question his poor reaction to charlottesville (except Nazis)
- His failure to negotiate a suitable replacement and subsequent efforts to suffocate the ACA have caused damage.
Damage. a huge cost hike in insurance because a deal can't be reached.
- His continuing divisive attacks on Obama/Clinton/dems cause damage
Damage. His inability to unite the legislative branch leads to intrenched division.
- His firing of the head of the FBI and admitting on TV that it was an obstruction of justice caused damage
Damage. Lack of trust, lack of respect for gov. agencies and clear stupidity.
- His hamfisted handling of the deaths of 4 Soldiers in Niger caused damage.
Damage. obvious
- His calling for the death penalty in the NY attack as well as Bergdal comments caused damage to any prosecution case
Damage. Harder for prosecution to bring the toughest cases.
- His appointment of an AG who lied under oath at a Senate hearing caused damage
Damage. Belittling of govt, institutions.
- His hiring and firing of his own senior WH staff causes damage
Damage. No continuity or confidence in his administration

valiant effort, but he's not worth it mate. it's like punching water... as soon as you withdraw your fist, it just flows right back in

 

[dholliday]

- His failure to staff government departments, in particular the state department, is doing damage. He's visiting S.Korea but hasn't appointed an ambassador there yet.
Damage caused: Short and long term international relations breakdown. Unnecessary resignation of overworked dept. staff.
- His EPA appointments are doing damage, there is a completely demoralized department and big business is calling the shots.
Damage done. Short term issues like the reintroduction of plastics to national parks causing pollution. Reintroduction of previously banned domestic chemicals which pose a health risk. Longer term denial of climate science will cause damage. Reversal of fossil fuel standards add to polution whether you believe in climate science or not.
- His appointment of Betsy DeVoss is doing damage
Damage - This is a personal opinion but the growth of charter schools is detrimental to general public schools and causes the poorer to get a poorer education. The emphasis of religion in education goes against what the founding fathers wanted.
- His targeting of Sanctuary cities is doing damage as undocumented victims of crime no longer go to police.
- His foreign policy stances are affecting the tourism industry.
Damage, financial and cultural.
- His lack of action on the LV shooter who shot over 500 people is causing damage.
Damage, his failure to speak out against Bump Stocks or use an executive order to ban them will cost lives.
- His stance on trans soldiers before talking to anyone in the military caused damage
Damage. Needlessly upsetting troops serving this country just to appeal to his base.
- His disclosure of sensitive Israeli military information to Kislyak in the oval office caused damage.
Damage. this one is self explanatory
- Rolling back his own condemnation on the Charlottesville attack caused damage.
Damage, again, no one could possibly question his poor reaction to charlottesville (except Nazis)
- His failure to negotiate a suitable replacement and subsequent efforts to suffocate the ACA have caused damage.
Damage. a huge cost hike in insurance because a deal can't be reached.
- His continuing divisive attacks on Obama/Clinton/dems cause damage
Damage. His inability to unite the legislative branch leads to intrenched division.
- His firing of the head of the FBI and admitting on TV that it was an obstruction of justice caused damage
Damage. Lack of trust, lack of respect for gov. agencies and clear stupidity.
- His hamfisted handling of the deaths of 4 Soldiers in Niger caused damage.
Damage. obvious
- His calling for the death penalty in the NY attack as well as Bergdal comments caused damage to any prosecution case
Damage. Harder for prosecution to bring the toughest cases.
- His appointment of an AG who lied under oath at a Senate hearing caused damage
Damage. Belittling of govt, institutions.
- His hiring and firing of his own senior WH staff causes damage
Damage. No continuity or confidence in his administration

Great post, Ruairi. While there's room for debate in a few of these, others are pretty cast-iron and damning for Trump.

Do you think this is intentional leadership or is the Trump Doctrine merely chaos?