Lobster Johnson
Player Valuation: £35m
They also took a load of pens, sellotape, hole punches and reams of A4 he'd had off from the stationary cupboard.
Current Affairs Donald Trump POS: Judgement cometh and that right soon
- Thread starter kithnou
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They also took a load of pens, sellotape, hole punches and reams of A4 he'd had off from the stationary cupboard.
dylsexicbleu
Player Valuation: £8m
As I understand it he had sent some archives back. This sort of stuff isn't new. There is often a blurred line between what an office holder is entitled to keep, what they are not entitled to keep, and what is held by archivists until the Presidential library is built. What is kinda unprecedented is the actions of the FBI here. These things are usually negotiated & resolved behind the scenes. Now, it may turn out that the FBI were justified in their actions. However, if this was simply one of the usual disagreements on some archives then it's a move that may backfire on those signing off on the raid.
Lobster Johnson
Player Valuation: £35m
I'm gonna guess that if the FBI are raiding your office, there have probably been some earlier attempts to recover the stuff.
It obviously isn't. Someone has flipped in his inner circle, maybe Meadows.
This is another example of how much trust we put into the people we elect president.
A president can unilateral declassify anything - such as Trump did when he spilled info to Russian officials in the White House.
That is yet something else that we need to change.
A president can unilateral declassify anything - such as Trump did when he spilled info to Russian officials in the White House.
That is yet something else that we need to change.
dylsexicbleu
Player Valuation: £8m
Fair enough. No point in disagreeing with you. We'll find out fairly soon if it is a substantive matter.
Is it just me or does the photo from the Politico tweet look like Hilary and Trump are doing a karaoke version of Endless Love?
Martin Alvito
Player Valuation: £50m
There's a lot to unpack here:
- Traditionally, sitting public office holders are immune from prosecution for anything other than out-and-out malfeasance in official conduct (treason, bribery, other 'high crimes and misdemeanors' as we put it). This dates back to Greece and Rome, and in the latter case immunity from prosecution while in office was absolute for those with executive power. Those protections have waned over the centuries to varying degrees in Western countries, because reasons (we could be here a while for a full treatment of that one). Our system requires removal from office by the Senate or expiry of elected term prior to prosecuting a sitting president, due to strong unwritten custom.
- There's absolutely nothing protecting someone out of office from prosecution, other than historical norms. This is what Trump is leaning on with the "witch hunt" narrative. We didn't lock LBJ up for deceiving Congress about Vietnam, and Daniel Ellsberg made a very strong case on that one. You could at least make the argument that this was similarly corrosive, and resulted in far more cost in human life. In a sense, that incident, Watergate and the fallout are how we got here.
- Destroying trust in elections without evidence is Julius Caesar stuff. Wrangling between the branches and out-and-out dishonesty are not new. Jefferson's is probably the original sin, when he concluded the Louisiana Purchase with thin pretext at best to justify it (using the treaties power, conveniently ignoring the power of the purse vested in the House to pay for it). You could equally cite Marbury v. Madison from a few months prior. Relations between the branches have not improved since then, at all. That said, inciting a riot to physically intimidate members of Congress into doing something is definitely new.
- The result is a large fraction of the citizenry that wants the judiciary to solve a problem that the Senate refuses to solve. The attitude is, "By any means necessary," which renders conviction on NY tax fraud charges, illegal retention of classified documents or on the merits of the treason charges equally satisfactory as a means of barring Donald Trump for running for president in two years. Those citizens are convinced that Trump will never voluntarily lay down power if he regains it, and they are probably right. Caesar was in much the same box - only holding onto executive power, for which he did not have the votes, would protect him from potential prosecution for his actions while in office. So he crossed the Rubicon.
- This didn't end well for anyone concerned the last time around. Caesar overthrew the government and ended up in a literal box. (Actually, they cremated him, but it looks better in print my way.) Another round of messy civil wars resulted in the end of the Republic, Octavian being renamed Augustus and the Twelve Caesars. It only took the third one to get to Caligula, followed by Claudius, Nero and the Year of the Four Emperors. This is not what we want, at all.
- I have to be honest: I don't see a way of sidestepping further political violence here. We've survived that before (eg: 1968) without things escalating to civil war. This doesn't have to be Rome 2.0, but there would have to be some recognition by the partisan hacks on the right that Donald Trump and his followers very much are not their friends. They may not be the first ones up against the wall if the revolution comes, but there would be nothing preventing them from ending up there. Ferrying the scorpion across the stream is a not a good plan.
- Traditionally, sitting public office holders are immune from prosecution for anything other than out-and-out malfeasance in official conduct (treason, bribery, other 'high crimes and misdemeanors' as we put it). This dates back to Greece and Rome, and in the latter case immunity from prosecution while in office was absolute for those with executive power. Those protections have waned over the centuries to varying degrees in Western countries, because reasons (we could be here a while for a full treatment of that one). Our system requires removal from office by the Senate or expiry of elected term prior to prosecuting a sitting president, due to strong unwritten custom.
- There's absolutely nothing protecting someone out of office from prosecution, other than historical norms. This is what Trump is leaning on with the "witch hunt" narrative. We didn't lock LBJ up for deceiving Congress about Vietnam, and Daniel Ellsberg made a very strong case on that one. You could at least make the argument that this was similarly corrosive, and resulted in far more cost in human life. In a sense, that incident, Watergate and the fallout are how we got here.
- Destroying trust in elections without evidence is Julius Caesar stuff. Wrangling between the branches and out-and-out dishonesty are not new. Jefferson's is probably the original sin, when he concluded the Louisiana Purchase with thin pretext at best to justify it (using the treaties power, conveniently ignoring the power of the purse vested in the House to pay for it). You could equally cite Marbury v. Madison from a few months prior. Relations between the branches have not improved since then, at all. That said, inciting a riot to physically intimidate members of Congress into doing something is definitely new.
- The result is a large fraction of the citizenry that wants the judiciary to solve a problem that the Senate refuses to solve. The attitude is, "By any means necessary," which renders conviction on NY tax fraud charges, illegal retention of classified documents or on the merits of the treason charges equally satisfactory as a means of barring Donald Trump for running for president in two years. Those citizens are convinced that Trump will never voluntarily lay down power if he regains it, and they are probably right. Caesar was in much the same box - only holding onto executive power, for which he did not have the votes, would protect him from potential prosecution for his actions while in office. So he crossed the Rubicon.
- This didn't end well for anyone concerned the last time around. Caesar overthrew the government and ended up in a literal box. (Actually, they cremated him, but it looks better in print my way.) Another round of messy civil wars resulted in the end of the Republic, Octavian being renamed Augustus and the Twelve Caesars. It only took the third one to get to Caligula, followed by Claudius, Nero and the Year of the Four Emperors. This is not what we want, at all.
- I have to be honest: I don't see a way of sidestepping further political violence here. We've survived that before (eg: 1968) without things escalating to civil war. This doesn't have to be Rome 2.0, but there would have to be some recognition by the partisan hacks on the right that Donald Trump and his followers very much are not their friends. They may not be the first ones up against the wall if the revolution comes, but there would be nothing preventing them from ending up there. Ferrying the scorpion across the stream is a not a good plan.
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