I never said it was noble, I just pointed out that if your ancestors supplanted people when they emigrated to America, you're being a bit hypocritical, unless, of course, you disagree with what they did.
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I disagree with it in the sense it was done cruelly and dishonestly.
I don't disagree with it in the sense I probably wouldn't exist otherwise and it was 180 years ago.
I'm not blowing right past them. I'm challenging them.
You say you feel the same way about international migration as you do about inter state migration. Yet you want to build a wall between America and Mexico.
You dont want immigrant culture to supplant existing culture, conveniently ignoring a large chunk of the history of this country.
To be honest, I'm fine with most of your posts but I find this immigrant point of view troubling.
but you have a problem with people who are peacefully moving to your area but not adopting your culture?
I actually said, in my post,
"I think lawful immigrants should have their cultural impact felt by the country where they take up residence."
As for Texas/California...spend time in Austin and you'll hear former Californians bemoaning what Austin has become (under their watch). Dallas is filled with former Californians complaining about regressive ideologies in a place where they voluntarily relocated. That's what I'm talking about.
The only reason I raise Texas/California is because I'm trying to point out that much of my interest in the illegal immigration discussion derives from issues that are not unique to non-Americans. You can substitute in any state you like for Texas/California. Anywhere where people are drawn to a place, then subsequently alter the foundations that brought them to said place.
meh... I'm just pi##ed off with satan's spawn from across the park.
First, freedom of interstate travel is a constitutionally-protected right. It's not akin to securing national borders. That said, we're not talking about that when we talk about Texas/California. I have no interest in legal prevention of Californians screwing up Texas.
Second, I don't ignore the history of this country. In my post I referenced that immigrants do and should have influence on their destination countries (US included).
It depends on what you mean. I don't expect immigrants from, let's say, Honduras, to start immediately saying "ya'll" and cease eating Honduran food or listening to Honduran music. I don't expect them to abandon their traditions, religion, etc. I anticipate they will participate and engage in the community they live in and gainfully contribute to it through good citizenry, employment, etc.
You know a lot of Californians in Texas then? Or is this based of a few people you argued with?
That sort of thing happens in every state with every person not from that state. We see it here with people from all over and I bet if I asked friends anywhere else they will say the same.
We have seen politicians get elected and city officials who were implants and who were unhappy with things it's not new and it's not something those bad Californians with their progressive ideas came up with.
I think when you say "nativist" you really mean traditionalist and you dont like progressive change simple as that.
The foundation of this country is built on many types trying to better themselves and or trying something different to their neighbour.
Change will occur again. What's mad is the people you are arguing with are immigrants to this country and have no issue adopting and getting used to ways and things here. I find a lot of immigrants have a deeper appreciation than a lot of the native folk. Fresh eyes and the pure eagerness to succeed here.
neil999
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Your version of a good citizen/participation may be different to what other people find acceptable
I know a lot of Texans living around Californians in Texas.
I agree it happens everywhere. That's why I said you could use any state for an example most likely. California is where plenty of terrible ideas take root, but certainly they're not limited to California.
When I say nativist I mean someone who is seeking to avoid having a community influenced by non-natives. And that just isn't me. I live in a pretty diverse place, but I come from a pretty non-diverse place. Diversity for the sake of diversity isn't important to me, but I nonetheless elect to live in a place where there is more diversity because I just find it more interesting.
I wholeheartedly agree with you on immigrants who are often more willing to embrace American ideals than native folk. Not sure what's mad about that or my statements that preceded that. I think it's difficult to have discussions about immigration in this thread because people assume I'm anti-immigrant by default. So if I break from the "immigrants are bad" character, I'm "all over the place." But if I express pretty mainstream beliefs, like we should enforce immigration laws and avoid enclaves and secure the border, it's right back to thinking I'm opposed to any outside influence.
You hit on a good point here actually. Because what it really comes down to is that the modern right is seeking to hold on to American ideals that the modern left may not believe in anymore, or vice versa. Or the American left is seeking to add/implement values that the right disagrees with. However you want to frame it.
So when we talk about topics like immigration and assimilation, we should often rewind and talk about what "American values" are in the first place. If someone thinks free speech and the freedom to offend are antiquated concepts, then obviously we're not going to get very far on the standard to which we hold immigrants, for example.
But that's not what it is, though. That's not what many people view as American values.
You can disagree with me, but from who I talk to, interact with, and just what I see every day, American values, at least the kind that the right (mostly Christian) says is worth protecting, is the 50's era white male dominated, submissive wife type, church going, god fearing flag waver.
This isn't something that "the left" has created a narrative on. This is what I see every day, from actually talking to these people about what they think, and in some cases read between the lines when they aren't saying it openly. It's nostalgia, for a time when everything seemed to be better. There are many things to blame for why things were "better" before. This talk of American values being the one that's getting the most ink currently.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. I thought we were talking about my views on immigration. I'm not being narcissistic, but when the discussion changes from what I think to what people who are kind of similar to me think, I'm way down a path of argument I may not have ever signed up for.
But even going into your more macro discussion, you're probably going to take a pretty subjective view of what the right's subjective views are. I know that's confusing/circular, but the point is that it comes through the lens of your political perspective, and I tend to think that isn't reality to some degree. I don't think most of the people you know want to return to an age where sexual harassment was totally accepted and black people were oppressed. Do they want some things from that age to return? Probably. And what's wrong with that? I tend to think the era is quite romanticized, but I'm sure there probably were some noble beliefs and social norms that we could benefit from.
It’s the ‘build a wall’ stuff that throws me
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