Does the U23 System Work ?

[Simon Buttle]

No. Different squad different age group mate

Yeah i double checked it and i realise it was the under19's not under 20's, my mistake

 

[KaiserEFC]

You can’t make players who will never be good enough to be first teamers into first teamers. Sometimes you get a good crop of them sometimes you don’t.

 

[jceverton]

You can’t make players who will never be good enough to be first teamers into first teamers. Sometimes you get a good crop of them sometimes you don’t.

No agreed, but you can also stall the development of younger players who could make it into the first team if they were developed properly and given game time at the right age. Problem for younger players is often they don’t play enough competitive football with good coaching between 18 to 22. Likes of Dowell should have gone out on loan the season before last the so he’d now have had two seasons of playing competitive football. Similarly Walsh should have gone on loan season after he played for Yeovil instead of going back with U23’s.

 

[KaiserEFC]

No agreed, but you can also stall the development of younger players who could make it into the first team if they were developed properly and given game time at the right age. Problem for younger players is often they don’t play enough competitive football with good coaching between 18 to 22. Likes of Dowell should have gone out on loan the season before last the so he’d now have had two seasons of playing competitive football. Similarly Walsh should have gone on loan season after he played for Yeovil instead of going back with U23’s.

I can’t disagree with that, but are Dowell and co actually that good? The club don’t seem to want to put him anywhere near the first team and he still hasn’t been given a new deal. I’m not sure he and several other U23’s are rated by the club

 

[jceverton]

I can’t disagree with that, but are Dowell and co actually that good? The club don’t seem to want to put him anywhere near the first team and he still hasn’t been given a new deal. I’m not sure he and several other U23’s are rated by the club

I know Dowell was very highly rated by likes of Royle and Sheedy. I had brief chat with Royle two seasons back at a sports dinner and he reckoned Dowell would play for England. Not sure what’s happening with his contract and whether it’s him not signing it or the club not offering one.

 

[Barnfred 55]

Personally I am coming to the conclusion that it is a deeply unsatisfactory method of producing or developing players capable of transitioning to first team football.
I have long believed that the system prior to the U23 leagues when clubs considered the Reserve team as the testing ground for any young players considered to be close to the first team, to be far superior. Reserve team football was not without its own criticism but it allowed young players the chance to experience and prove their worth among grizzled pro's and recovering and out of favour stars. It gave a far better indication of a players progression than the arbitrarily restricted and artificial U23 league which only bears a passing resemblance to the strictures and rigours of first 11 football.
It is noticeable that clubs frequently recruit young players from other clubs who have already broken into their own first team.and have that experience rather than from their from their own . Players in lower leagues break into their first team earlier and when they progress to the higher leagues often display more determination and have a better attitude than their more privileged peers.
In truth a footballers career is relatively short and is generally adjudged to last from around 20 to 30. In that context , if your not considered good enough at 21 say, you probably won't be good enough at 24. Yet our U23 teams contain players earning good money playing in an ultimately meaningless competition who are never going to be good enough ,it's a complete waste of money and resources.
What are the alternatives though.? Well,in this country we have sought to involve them in lower league cup competitions, to the chagrin it has to be said of the other competitors. It is an imperfect solution and as well as the resentment it also exposes how poorly the so called elite U23s perform in open age football.
In Spain the larger clubs enter reserve teams in the lower leagues. It's a system that seems to work but it is resented by the smaller clubs and clearly can't be replicated by all so is inherently unfair. It would never be allowed here.
Another system that seems to be gaining ground is for clubs to purchase an interest in lesser clubs in foreign leagues and allow their promising youngsters to gain experience whilst maintaining control over their development and future. But this route is only open to the wealthiest clubs and is again palpably unfair to others.
We obviously have the loan system but this is imperfect and unsatisfactory as players leave may be exposed to less than ideal coaching and can even fail to find sufficient game time. Possibly even worse , if successful, they become unsettled and move on.
Personally I would abolish the U23 system altogether and replace it with an open age reserve league.

I don't think the problem is the U23 system per se. I think the problem is that, in the premier league, we don't trust young players enough to give them regular first team football at the time they need it most, 18/22. They make mistakes which can potentially cost points which can threaten the clubs existence in the premier league. Due to the differential in TV money in this country every club is petrified of relegation.

Premier league clubs would rather fill their squads with experienced but average players from abroad, than give opportunities to their best youth players. There are a few exceptions like Pochettino, and to a lesser extent Klopp and Pep (plus hopefully Silva), but on the whole very good young English players end up getting loaned out rather than developed by coaches at their parent clubs and stagnate.

Compare this to what happens in Germany, France, Holland and also Italy and Spain to a lesser degree. At the last U21 euros, we got beat by Germany in the semis. Their squad had something like 5 times the number of top flight senior appearances under their belt compared to Englands.

 

[Barnfred 55]

The aim in our academy seems to be to produce professional footballers and help young working class guys make a living at something they love. All admirable in itself. But the sole aim of our academy should be to produce quality players who can step into the first 11 in their very early twenties, and not look out of place. I don't think there's any pressure or ruthlessness instilled into these kids to succeed. It's all very nice and comfortable.

Come on Tim, think about what you're saying here. The aim of our academy is definitely to produce players that are good enough for our first team. The better our first team is, the harder that challenge becomes. If we were ever able to be in a position that each age group produces one first teamer, then that is a job well done. I don't think there's any football club playing at the top level that manages that on a consistent basis as the truth is that very few academy players make it at top clubs.

A bi product of any academy is that they produce professional footballers that play at a lower level than their base club. It's inevitable this will happen. The only way to prevent this is to put the bar so high that you only have the very best players joining your academy and there are 2 massive flaws with this. Firstly, there's no point having an academy if you don't have enough players to form a team. Secondly. when you have so many top players in the one club there's no way they can all be accommodated in that clubs first XI. You can see the result of that now with Man City, who have been dominating the younger age groups within the academy, but now most of their best players are leaving to get scholarships at other clubs where there is more opportunity for them.

 

[Barnfred 55]

There seems to be no perfect solution sadly, the FA having already extended the final age group from U21 to U23, and allowing 3 over-age players in each XI in an effort to further bridge the gap.
Where we seem to be going wrong is picking the correct loan to suit the player to maximise their development. Perhaps we need a "feeder club" in each division to send our players to (depending on the stage of their development), with all clubs sharing the footballing ideology of our first team.
Liam Walsh immediately stands out as someone who was mismanaged, a youngster with as much talent as Dowell, but a lack of game time at Birmingham (and admittedly an injury the year before at an inopportune time) meant that he wasn't in position to make the step up.
That said, Kenny is already an established deputy to Coleman, Dowell looking like Sigurdsson's understudy, Davies (although still raw) is a solid squad player, Holgate (who spent some time in U23s) is arguably our best centre-half. Furthermore, with Robinson, Baningime and Connolly looking a year away from being established first team options, I'd say we're pretty well-stocked for youngsters who've managed to make the jump successfully.

If anything, at the moment the academy has been too successful as we're struggling to accommodate the number of players they are producing that have first team potential.

The problem here, I think, is that people are judging players when they are still going through their development. They expect players to be first team ready at 18/19 and you only get that very rarely with players like Rooney or Barkley or Lukaku who's bodies/physicality is so much more developed for their age.

 

[ijjysmith]

Nope

 

[ButOkayThatsFootball]

The problem here, I think, is that people are judging players when they are still going through their development. They expect players to be first team ready at 18/19 and you only get that very rarely with players like Rooney or Barkley or Lukaku who's bodies/physicality is so much more developed for their age.

Exactly this. It's also difficult to predict which youngsters will kick on between 19-24 and which ones will plateau. For example, players who dominate in the younger age groups sometimes don't kick one once promoted, whereas the fairly standard ones who don't look *that* special find a way of making improvements each year, however small, and finally reach level where they're of a good enough quality for the first team.
Out of the current crop, I think Connolly could fit this bracket, rather similar to Coleman who looked pretty average and a little suspect defensively when first blooded through at right midfield.

 

[atrottel]

Hate to sound like an old fart (but that's what I am) but there is also a massive difference between then and now.

IF you managed to get a contract and then didn't develop, you stood a good chance of going back to working with your dad fitting kitchens.
NOW you know that even if you just see out a contract, you could probably buy your dad's business with small change.

People talk about improving contracts and keeping hold of youngsters but 20 grand a week is a million a year. The average weekly wage for a PL footballer is now 50 grand a week.

They are kids. Some, from decent family backgrounds or countries where they know what it is like to suffer real hardship, make the effort to improve themselves month after month. Others, who know they have already earned what most people would be lucky to get in lottery winnings and, don't forget, who have been full on in professionalised youth systems for years of their childhood, might understandably be tempted to take that foot slightly off the pedal.

 

[blueloon]

It all depends on how you measure success. Did the emergence of the naturally gifted Rooney mean our set up was fantastic, or did we add very little to his development as it was there anyway. The likes of Callum Connolly and Beni Benigime are not so naturally talented but have been developed into fine young footballers I.e we’ve added value to these individuals by developing them.
Collectively , we could have a “reserve team” of outfielders who have been exposed to the first team in PL or preseason consisting of Kenny, Holgate, Connolly, Robinson; Davies, Benigime; Dowell, Vlasic , Lookman; DCL , all between 19 -21 years old, plus others like Joe Williams. Not all of that “team” will make it as regular PL players . But you could drop any one player, maybe two or three into a PL team if there were 9 decent players alongside them . What these players should be able to provide is back up in the squad that would allow us to concentrate on spending money on decent 1st teamers like Richarlison without hunting around for 2nd rate back up like Martina , Cleverly etc as we’ve done in the past .

So in that sense the Academy/ u21/23 system has done its job of developing and adding value to our young players. Ok 4 players have come from outside but all have played U23s. We’re not a top six club and we need to do something different to other clubs to get there. Part of that has got to be developing our young players to fill positions including as back up , and then spending wisely on decent players to fill other positions.

 

[abelard]

You honestly think our youth team would finish 8th in the bundesliga?

It Couldnt beat league one/two sides in the checkatrade trophy last year? And that’s with most of those sides fielding weaker teams!

the talent is there.

the youth squad is the envy of much of Europe.

in more capable hands it is vastly more likely to reach potential.

 

[Nymzee]

I'd say it isn't proving it's worth but at the same time I'm glad we at least have a place to buy and "stockpile" unproven youth players. Some teams are even getting rid of their acadamies now.

 

[JobForTheMoyes]

They should bring back the reserve league. - it allowed the young players to get experience against the men without having to get thrown in at the deep end.