Does the U23 System Work ?

[Eggsyblueskin]

I don't think the problem is the U23 system per se. I think the problem is that, in the premier league, we don't trust young players enough to give them regular first team football at the time they need it most, 18/22. They make mistakes which can potentially cost points which can threaten the clubs existence in the premier league. Due to the differential in TV money in this country every club is petrified of relegation.

Premier league clubs would rather fill their squads with experienced but average players from abroad, than give opportunities to their best youth players. There are a few exceptions like Pochettino, and to a lesser extent Klopp and Pep (plus hopefully Silva), but on the whole very good young English players end up getting loaned out rather than developed by coaches at their parent clubs and stagnate.

Compare this to what happens in Germany, France, Holland and also Italy and Spain to a lesser degree. At the last U21 euros, we got beat by Germany in the semis. Their squad had something like 5 times the number of top flight senior appearances under their belt compared to Englands.

There is certainly some truth in what you say but the absence of an open age step between youth and first team seriously restricts the development of young players. Using the loan system is a poor substitute and means to a large extent you lose control of their progression.
We had high hopes of Garbutt and Galloway but their careers have atrophied during their loans and I wonder whether they would have fared better with the old reserve system.
I don't think you can use the first team to develop young players. This is not a modern phenomenon, the first team is the point of a clubs existence and a player gets only so much good will before we demand some level of success. It is a brutal way to develop young players.
Having a open age reserve team allowed young players to alternate between the two while still experiencing a demanding level of competitiveness. A more gradual and controlled progression. The U23 team does not provide this.
In my view the U23 team becomes a repository for many players approaching their mid 20s who if they were ever going to make it ,have missed their opportunity.

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

Hate to sound like an old fart (but that's what I am) but there is also a massive difference between then and now.

IF you managed to get a contract and then didn't develop, you stood a good chance of going back to working with your dad fitting kitchens.
NOW you know that even if you just see out a contract, you could probably buy your dad's business with small change.

People talk about improving contracts and keeping hold of youngsters but 20 grand a week is a million a year. The average weekly wage for a PL footballer is now 50 grand a week.

They are kids. Some, from decent family backgrounds or countries where they know what it is like to suffer real hardship, make the effort to improve themselves month after month. Others, who know they have already earned what most people would be lucky to get in lottery winnings and, don't forget, who have been full on in professionalised youth systems for years of their childhood, might understandably be tempted to take that foot slightly off the pedal.

This is very good observation. I have often observed that young players from the academies of lower league clubs often display a better attitude and far more determination than their top league counterparts.
In the past players came from working class backgrounds and had often already experienced work in tough conditions before they were given the chance to play professional football. Even though the money was nowhere near today's levels they knew the opportunity they had and seized it with both hands.
I don't think players at the top academies appreciate this and by the time they reach the very well paid U23s they lack the motivation to do that extra bit of work in to succeed.
It is also one reason why many of the best players today come from the underprivileged countries and sections of society.

 

[d4kyxx]

the talent is there.

the youth squad is the envy of much of Europe.

in more capable hands it is vastly more likely to reach potential.

I think your massively overrating our youth squad

 

[OneTrueLegend]

I think in an ideal world from Everton's perspective we would do one of 2 things;

1. play the U23's in the football league, we could do this by placing the U23 league at the bottom of the football league and allowing the teams to play their way up through the leagues, but having something in place where you could never have an U23 team in the premier league

2. Allow premier league teams to buy out existing lower league teams and flood them with their development players.

These are the only ways I can see to improve the development teams in terms of readying them for competitive football and seeing if the players are really good enough. At the moment all we can do is loan them out and I think this has given mixed results

 

[dead_soft]

I think in an ideal world from Everton's perspective we would do one of 2 things;

1. play the U23's in the football league, we could do this by placing the U23 league at the bottom of the football league and allowing the teams to play their way up through the leagues, but having something in place where you could never have an U23 team in the premier league

2. Allow premier league teams to buy out existing lower league teams and flood them with their development players.

These are the only ways I can see to improve the development teams in terms of readying them for competitive football and seeing if the players are really good enough. At the moment all we can do is loan them out and I think this has given mixed results

So get slightly better youth players but destroy the fabric of the football pyramid?

 

[OneTrueLegend]

So get slightly better youth players but destroy the fabric of the football pyramid?

Yes I am not bothered about lower league football, I want whats best for Everton

 

[dead_soft]

Yes I am not bothered about lower league football, I want whats best for Everton

Hark at Sky Sports Fan over here

 

[jackyboy]

Nah.

 

[MikeH72]

There’s kids in the under 23s there that we paid a fair wedge for like Josh Bowler and Lewis Gibson. Those two players cost us £10m don’t forget, does anyone that watches the youth teams regularly know if they’ve improved at all since being here?

 

[Nymzee]

There’s kids in the under 23s there that we paid a fair wedge for like Josh Bowler and Lewis Gibson. Those two players cost us £10m don’t forget, does anyone that watches the youth teams regularly know if they’ve improved at all since being here?

Hard to say really they don’t really get many games at that level and were eased in at the beginning. Both will make the first team squad though IMO at some point.

 

[jaycee]

Youth development at the top level on English or British football is poor,every few years a new idea comes along to make things better but fails,how many world class players have England produced over the last 30 years?

 

[Timak]

Youth development at the top level on English or British football is poor,every few years a new idea comes along to make things better but fails,how many world class players have England produced over the last 30 years?

We are currently world champions at U17 and U20 level.

Both won by out footballing opposition, particularly the U17 team.

The problem is opportunity. Bundesliga teams give them a chance to play hence Sancho starting for Dortmund at 17 and Lookman straight into the RB team when he wasn't good enough for us.

Phil Foden looks amazing, easily good enough for first team football. But better than De Bruyne? Not yet so he won't play.

 

[catcherintherye]

We are currently world champions at U17 and U20 level.

Both won by out footballing opposition, particularly the U17 team.

The problem is opportunity. Bundesliga teams give them a chance to play hence Sancho starting for Dortmund at 17 and Lookman straight into the RB team when he wasn't good enough for us.

Phil Foden looks amazing, easily good enough for first team football. But better than De Bruyne? Not yet so he won't play.

Unfortunately we are held back by a mixture of parochialism, stupidity and arrogance when it comes to those young players (We as in the England set up, media etc).

The crux of the problem, is the top teams by young players as assets to make money off as opposed to develop. It leads to them hoovering up far too much talent, paying them too much too young and ultimately never having a pathway for them. Any discussion about the loan system, the under 23 system, or indeed playing B teams has to start from this perspective. That the top teams hoover up talent, in a borderline unethical way and wonder why they don't them have a path way to opportunity.

I saw an article on the BBC the other day accusing young players going abroad of "taking the easy option". This sort of sums up the complete lack of sense across our media. They are so used to worshipping the top teams and refuse to countenance any critical engagement with them, they cannot see the strikingly obvious. I remember we had the same with that Rotund idiot Martin Samuel when he had a go at us for loaning Lukaku, yet never is the spleen turned upon teams like Chelsea who want to perennially loan players out.

As with any area of business or life, if the supply and demand don't meet you ought to look elsewhere. Jason Sancho took a sensible step moving to the Bundesliga, is career will benefit massively from that decision. You can't knock what Chelsea and City offer to young players (particularly City with the education) but at age 17/18 I think these young players have got to start taking braver decisions. If you are Phil Foden, you should demand to be involved with the first team squad (and playing 20+ games) or not sign a Contract with them and go and join a side where that is guaranteed. The same is true of most young players. I downed if Brewster will regret bottling the decision at Liverpool.

I haven't got a lot of time for young players, who take the inflated contracts at the top teams, to bemoan lack of opportunities like it's a surprise. Go to a different team, maybe a different league or country, maybe for less money to get the opportunity to to progress. It's what ,any European players do and I'm not sure why it's seen as so below us. The top teams give so few opportunities to very talented players it doesn't make sense to stay much beyond 16 at said clubs. By that point you'll have received an education at City to GCSE standard and have should have got pretty good options to fall back upon.

As for us, the under 23's works well for us. We had 7 lads who were given starts in the premier league who were 21 and under last season. That being said, I do think the expansion to allow players up to 23 to play just prolongs the problem as opposed to solves it.

 

[aberonn]

 

[Eggsyblueskin]

Unfortunately we are held back by a mixture of parochialism, stupidity and arrogance when it comes to those young players (We as in the England set up, media etc).

The crux of the problem, is the top teams by young players as assets to make money off as opposed to develop. It leads to them hoovering up far too much talent, paying them too much too young and ultimately never having a pathway for them. Any discussion about the loan system, the under 23 system, or indeed playing B teams has to start from this perspective. That the top teams hoover up talent, in a borderline unethical way and wonder why they don't them have a path way to opportunity.

I saw an article on the BBC the other day accusing young players going abroad of "taking the easy option". This sort of sums up the complete lack of sense across our media. They are so used to worshipping the top teams and refuse to countenance any critical engagement with them, they cannot see the strikingly obvious. I remember we had the same with that Rotund idiot Martin Samuel when he had a go at us for loaning Lukaku, yet never is the spleen turned upon teams like Chelsea who want to perennially loan players out.

As with any area of business or life, if the supply and demand don't meet you ought to look elsewhere. Jason Sancho took a sensible step moving to the Bundesliga, is career will benefit massively from that decision. You can't knock what Chelsea and City offer to young players (particularly City with the education) but at age 17/18 I think these young players have got to start taking braver decisions. If you are Phil Foden, you should demand to be involved with the first team squad (and playing 20+ games) or not sign a Contract with them and go and join a side where that is guaranteed. The same is true of most young players. I downed if Brewster will regret bottling the decision at Liverpool.

I haven't got a lot of time for young players, who take the inflated contracts at the top teams, to bemoan lack of opportunities like it's a surprise. Go to a different team, maybe a different league or country, maybe for less money to get the opportunity to to progress. It's what ,any European players do and I'm not sure why it's seen as so below us. The top teams give so few opportunities to very talented players it doesn't make sense to stay much beyond 16 at said clubs. By that point you'll have received an education at City to GCSE standard and have should have got pretty good options to fall back upon.

As for us, the under 23's works well for us. We had 7 lads who were given starts in the premier league who were 21 and under last season. That being said, I do think the expansion to allow players up to 23 to play just prolongs the problem as opposed to solves it.

I agree about our young players being far too willing to sit in the U23s while their career opportunities dwindle away.
It creates players with a very poor attitude who exude a sense of entitlement and an inherent unwillingness to go the extra mile to achieve their potential.
For me the problem is twofold. They are earning way too much money to actively seek opportunities elsewhere.
The other problem for me is that they are reluctant to seek opportunities abroad because they reflect the inherent insularity and totally misplaced arrogance of our society at large.
It is noticeable that young players who arrive here are often multi lingual and seem far more intelligent than our monosyllabic contingent.
I applaud any young British player who is willing and brave enough to try his luck in a foreign land and experience a different culture on and off the pitch, rather than sitting on his fat, overpriveliged backside spending money he hasn't really earned.