Does Cahill hold us back

[billycopper]

Seeing as all the cool kids are doing it:

Howard
Coleman Jags Distin Baines
Rodwell Fellaini
Arteta Bilyaletdinov Osman
Saha
​

or preferably:

Howard
Coleman Jags Distin Baines
Anichebe Osman Fellaini Arteta
Beckford Saha​

Not too sure about Anichebe in that one, though. It just highlights how weak we are at RM/RW.

I can't honestly find any good formation that involves Cahill without me thinking "so and so would be better there".

Your top one isn't bad. I'd probably shuffle the midfield three though for the same reasons that I explained earlier and have Bily tucked in on the left.

If we're going for your second team, then I'd prefer Neville at right back and Coleman at right midfield. I wouldn't start with Vic.

 

[Jenko]

The consensus seems to be that Osman can't play out wide. Coleman certainly poses a more direct threat.

Bily struggles out wide too. Arteta has shown more promise on the left than anyone.

Bily deserves a chance in the middle and Osman plays better in the middle sure, however Arteta is our Playmaker and should be the heartbeat of the team when on form, and is a lot better at doing that through the middle. Coleman and Gueye can be rotated in and out.

The game very often passes Rodwell by. Why is he in the side ahead of Cahill, one of our most consistent goalscorers?

I rate Rodwell very highly and think he'll do well this year. I don't think we should play Cahill when we can blood through a player with as much potential as Jack. I think Cahill should be used as an impact sub and only start against the likes of Chelsea/United/Liverpool etc.

 

[RFUS]

Your top one isn't bad. I'd probably shuffle the midfield three though for the same reasons that I explained earlier and have Bily tucked in on the left.

If we're going for your second team, then I'd prefer Neville at right back and Coleman at right midfield. I wouldn't start with Vic.

As me and Toccy have said having Coleman at RB doesn't mean we're going to be more exposed. Neville and Hibbert both get forward and to say they don't is a lie. They just do feck all when they get forward. Coleman however would be able to do something.

He wouldn't be as assured defensively but then he's 10 years younger than Neville and you've got to start somewhere.

 

[ToxtethBlue]

Neville puts a diagonal ball in to the box pretty much as soon as he crosses the half way line. We need Coleman to be getting into the final third and into the box. Of course he has to be in the team somewhere and he does need to learn the fullback position, but I think we need to guard against being too open at the back. And, on the other hand, if Coleman doesn't get forward as much from right back, then we've lost one of our biggest threats going forward.

I'm happy to try Ossie in the middle. I don't think we'll see the same form from last season though because it's a deeper role and it involves more defending than the one in which he shone.

I'm trying to see where this extra creativity has come from. Coleman and Osman are both now further away from the opposition goal than they were last season and in has come Barkley, who's completely untested at this level.

He hasn't had any problems during pre-season, for Blackpool or during the odd game he's had there for us. Do you not remember the Tottenham game? He'd have more oppurtunities to get to the byline because he's overlapping, rather than dribbling, which he's inconsistent at. Neville gets forward, he just doesn't have that athleticism or mobility to do anything other than whip in a ball from an angled position.

Osman played as an out and out centre midfielder during those spells, to be honest. I think you'll get a different Ossie, more of a box to box midfielder, but he's always scored goals from orthodox midfield positions. Having Baines, Osman (left CM) and Arteta (LM) close together would help us break down defences.

Barkley is a fair point given his lack of experience. I'd like to hope he could take on that role but you could always use Gueye, Bilyaletdinov or Anichebe there. Bilyaletdinov in particular would benefit from someone like Coleman at fullback.

 

[billycopper]

Its about if you had to feature Cahill.

And Saha on the left is not as in he's a winger, he'll just float from a left channel trying to pull space for Coleman to bomb on similar to Baines on the left. And Cahill is the "fighter" we've mentioned so he hussles defenders and creates opening for your attacking midfield 3 or Saha Osman and Anichebe/Gueye or Bilya etc to cause damage. Back up plan is that Cahill gets his head on a cross.

And Arteta does like playing from deep...he starts everything from deep. So while the attacking 3 are causing problems, they can always come back and let Arteta dictate play from midfield, spreading the ball about. His defensive strength is also underrated as a midfielder. Or you can drop Vic, put Arteta there, and stick Osman/Rodwell with Fellaini - probably a better shout.

Its also inter-changable, same with formation 2. Osman can drop in or get forward, same with Fellaini. Cahill can drop back allowing whoever is the central attacking midfielder to break through. Or the can swap with either left or right attacking midfielders ala Saha etc.

As for Beckford...he only works in a 4-4-2. Without Cahill. You use him with Saha or Vellios (would be good to blood him)

I'd still say that Arteta is our most creative player and we need him much further up the pitch running at people, playing his teammates in and taking on shots. In the 'watercarrier' position he was getting caught on the ball and people were going past him far too easily. He looked like a shadow of the player we all know and love in that role. As soon as he switched out to the left he had a smile on his face and he was creating goals.

Part of our problem is that we don't get up and down the pitch enough. We sit deep and leave the lone striker to feed on balls into the corners. If Saha is played on the flank, then the majority of his job will be to protect the full back. If Cahill had to do the closing down expected of the lone striker, it would be marginally less pointless than when big Dunc or Beattie used to lumber across the park while the defender picked out his pass.

 

[RFUS]

I'd still say that Arteta is our most creative player and we need him much further up the pitch running at people, playing his teammates in and taking on shots. In the 'watercarrier' position he was getting caught on the ball and people were going past him far too easily. He looked like a shadow of the player we all know and love in that role. As soon as he switched out to the left he had a smile on his face and he was creating goals.

Part of our problem is that we don't get up and down the pitch enough. We sit deep and leave the lone striker to feed on balls into the corners. If Saha is played on the flank, then the majority of his job will be to protect the full back. If Cahill had to do the closing down expected of the lone striker, it would be marginally less pointless than when big Dunc or Beattie used to lumber across the park while the defender picked out his pass.

I think with Arteta he was technically playing the same position he always did at CM. He was just, for one reason or another, playing deeper and not getting forward as much. I didn't really understand why this was, to be honest. Fellaini seemed to play higher than him which was bizarre as Fellaini's the defensive player and Arteta the offensive one. Maybe I was imagining that, but I'm fairly sure anyway.

What I'm saying is surely we can get Arteta and Fellaini to work together? Arteta has played his best football for us at CM and I don't think we can ignore that and accept he's a left midfielder now and that's that.

 

[Brownie]

He played there for 3/4 of last season and had his worst run of form in an Everton shirt. He gets switched out to the left and suddenly he comes alive.

Saha is 33 and doesn't like running if he doesn't have to. Don't you think he'd question why, at that stage of his career, he's being asked to play in an alien position that takes him away from the penalty area?

Anichebe might be capable of playing wide, but that doesn't mean he's any good at it. He provided only 1 assist last season and hasn't scored in over 2 years. He's done nothing to warrant a starting place.

The role of the lone striker is to chase down lost causes and stretch the opposition on the break. Cahill has no pace or mobility. If the opposition push out, we'd have no options to get in behind them and spring their offside trap.

I don't mind people trying new things. In fact I encourage it. We have to be able to break things down and look at the pros and cons though.

Agreed, Mikel was on the whole poor last season. He still had some good games and even his shockers only went down as such because of his high standards. Likewise previous to last season he'd played in the exact same position and been one of the best players I've seen at the club. He's player excellently there a lot more often than he's played poorly. My take on that situation is the same as Moyes, he got stuck in a bit of a rut, lost his confidence and couldn't get out of it. Putting him out wide took the pressure off a bit and made him enjoy the game's more. I still think he's our best centre mid by a mile.

I don't think Saha would complain about being further from goal, I think he'd like it, tho I would be concerned about the defensive side of his game, he could be quite lazy. Anichebe is similar, but he's improved a lot with his work rate. If we had more options I'd play someone else out there, but as I said I want attackers in those positions and we don't have many. You could try Beckford out there but I can see him losing the ball a lot in that area.

Cahill isn't fast, but he's not slow either and I always maintain that he's a powerful runner with the ball. He works hard and has good stamina, I don't think he'd have a problem making runs.

We don't have a squad full of brilliant attacking talent, you can only work with what you've got. I think sometimes people forget what it means for a player to have the trust of a manager. That's a big reason for Cahill playing all the time, the manager knows he's not going to let him down. It's not an accident that he sticks him in the middle with the young lads to guide them along.

 

[TheFinnFan]

tim is ace, his forehead has scored more than we all combined!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[RFUS]

You could argue that Saha technically played as a supporting striker/in the Cahill position when he played with Beckford and he thrived in that role. That's further away from the goal than a lone striker, but he managed to start scoring again.

Just saying.

 

[Silas]

As me and Toccy have said having Coleman at RB doesn't mean we're going to be more exposed. Neville and Hibbert both get forward and to say they don't is a lie. They just do feck all when they get forward. Coleman however would be able to do something.

He wouldn't be as assured defensively but then he's 10 years younger than Neville and you've got to start somewhere.

Plus of course he has the pace to get back!

 

[billycopper]

He hasn't had any problems during pre-season, for Blackpool or during the odd game he's had there for us. Do you not remember the Tottenham game? He'd have more oppurtunities to get to the byline because he's overlapping, rather than dribbling, which he's inconsistent at. Neville gets forward, he just doesn't have that athleticism or mobility to do anything other than whip in a ball from an angled position.

Osman played as an out and out centre midfielder during those spells, to be honest. I think you'll get a different Ossie, more of a box to box midfielder, but he's always scored goals from orthodox midfield positions. Having Baines, Osman (left CM) and Arteta (LM) close together would help us break down defences.

Barkley is a fair point given his lack of experience. I'd like to hope he could take on that role but you could always use Gueye, Bilyaletdinov or Anichebe there. Bilyaletdinov in particular would benefit from someone like Coleman at fullback.

We'll only know if we try it. My fear is that the fullbacks will pull wide to give themselves space to run in to and that, if we lose the ball in midfield, our defence will be strung out all the way across the pitch. It also concerns me that we'll see more instances like the game against Reading, where we end up 2v2 at the back.

We had no Cahill, so Ossie very often played in the hole. He had Neville and Heitinga/Rodwell behind him. We did play some nice triangles against Bury. I still feel that we need someone with the intelligence to run into space or the skill to beat a man to get on the end of things. As it stands we press teams but it's all in front of them. We need something a bit different to penetrate and get in behind.

I'm not really convinced by any of our wide players. Barkley seems to think a pass ahead and he's always on the move, so hopefully he can offer us something different.

 

[RFUS]

Plus of course he has the pace to get back!

Haha.

That is a good point though. People love to praise Neville's handling of Bale last season, for example. But they're ignoring how Coleman came back and allowed us to double up on him. Coleman's pace could be vital as a fullback, considering you have to track wingers, who are traditionally pacey.

 

[billycopper]

Agreed, Mikel was on the whole poor last season. He still had some good games and even his shockers only went down as such because of his high standards. Likewise previous to last season he'd played in the exact same position and been one of the best players I've seen at the club. He's player excellently there a lot more often than he's played poorly. My take on that situation is the same as Moyes, he got stuck in a bit of a rut, lost his confidence and couldn't get out of it. Putting him out wide took the pressure off a bit and made him enjoy the game's more. I still think he's our best centre mid by a mile.

I don't think Saha would complain about being further from goal, I think he'd like it, tho I would be concerned about the defensive side of his game, he could be quite lazy. Anichebe is similar, but he's improved a lot with his work rate. If we had more options I'd play someone else out there, but as I said I want attackers in those positions and we don't have many. You could try Beckford out there but I can see him losing the ball a lot in that area.

Cahill isn't fast, but he's not slow either and I always maintain that he's a powerful runner with the ball. He works hard and has good stamina, I don't think he'd have a problem making runs.

We don't have a squad full of brilliant attacking talent, you can only work with what you've got. I think sometimes people forget what it means for a player to have the trust of a manager. That's a big reason for Cahill playing all the time, the manager knows he's not going to let him down. It's not an accident that he sticks him in the middle with the young lads to guide them along.

I think it gets very congested in midfield, especially if the opposition are matching up to us in terms of numbers. It's all well and good Arteta getting out of tight spots in front of his own back four, but where does it get us? Unless he can deliver a key pass from there, a move is always likely to break down. Out wide he had the freedom to get forward, and he revelled in it. We have nobody else who can beat a man like he does. What does he offer us from a deeper position that is more valuable than his contribution from the left? Can anyone else do his job in central midfield?

Have you ever seen Cahill outpace anyone? If we play a ball over the top could he outrun a centreback? If not, then he's only any use to us as a striker when we're doing the pressing.

 

[billycopper]

I think with Arteta he was technically playing the same position he always did at CM. He was just, for one reason or another, playing deeper and not getting forward as much. I didn't really understand why this was, to be honest. Fellaini seemed to play higher than him which was bizarre as Fellaini's the defensive player and Arteta the offensive one. Maybe I was imagining that, but I'm fairly sure anyway.

What I'm saying is surely we can get Arteta and Fellaini to work together? Arteta has played his best football for us at CM and I don't think we can ignore that and accept he's a left midfielder now and that's that.

I think Arteta felt that if he didn't go and pick the ball up off the centrebacks that they would lump it forward and byepass midfield. We could really do with an Arteta to pick the ball up and give it to another Arteta in midfield. Alternatively, Moyes could always coach his defenders to play a simple pass to Fellaini, who could feed it forward.

 

[RFUS]

I think Arteta felt that if he didn't go and pick the ball up off the centrebacks that they would lump it forward and byepass midfield. We could really do with an Arteta to pick the ball up and give it to another Arteta in midfield. Alternatively, Moyes could always coach his defenders to play a simple pass to Fellaini, who could feed it forward.

This all sounds too obvious, but going by what I saw with my own eyes I have to agree.

But I'm still holding onto the hope that Arteta and Fellani can become the dream CM pairing we wanted.