David Moyes/Everton Big Game Mentality

[wabisabi]

It's not so much about arguing what is /isn't a big game. Thing is that Moyes is back at that old familiar glass ceiling and he clearly can't crack it. It's a massively frustrating place to be (for at least 8 of his 11 years!) and so it all looks increasingly likely he'll be off over the summer.. and maybe a change is what we'll all need by then.

 

[Little Ralphy]

Yes.

Seriously have we reached the point where we've become so used to being crap that we view a quarter final as a big game, now? Really? A quarter final?

FFS. No wonder we tolerate the plucky little everton tag moyes tries to give us if we think that.

With all due respect you are talking complete @@@@ there mate. Any knockout cup game takes on added importance because if you lose it, you are no longer in that competition. You don't get to go and beat another team to make up the points, you lose, you're out.

An FA Cup Quarter Final takes on added significance because you are 2 wins away from a Cup Final, and 3 wins away from winning a trophy.

That's why as a player, you always look forward to the knockout cup games.

 

[Allezfan]

With all due respect you are talking complete @@@@ there mate. Any knockout cup game takes on added importance because if you lose it, you are no longer in that competition. You don't get to go and beat another team to make up the points, you lose, you're out.

An FA Cup Quarter Final takes on added significance because you are 2 wins away from a Cup Final, and 3 wins away from winning a trophy.

That's why as a player, you always look forward to the knockout cup games.

Any knockout cup game is important, sure. Like you say you have to win or you're out.

But when we won the trophy in 95, the big games were the semi or the final. It wasn't the earlier rounds against newcastle or derby that people remember even though they too had to be won.

We beat wigan and nobody talks about that game as big one, anymore then they talk about boro, west ham or sunderland as bid wins for moyes.

A big game is a final because if you win, you win. A quarter final isn't a big game because there's still two games left and losing a semi gets you nothing, you try telling a man u or liverpool fan about that big quarter final game we had this year and see what the reaction is.

 

[steken1]

Yes.

Seriously have we reached the point where we've become so used to being crap that we view a quarter final as a big game, now? Really? A quarter final?

FFS. No wonder we tolerate the plucky little everton tag moyes tries to give us if we think that.

It's 18 years since we won a pot mate, coming up to 30 since we were league champs. QF's mean as much to us as anything. They're big games.

 

[Allezfan]

It's 18 years since we won a pot mate, coming up to 30 since we were league champs. QF's mean as much to us as anything. They're big games.

Come on, bet you can't even remember all the seven quarter finals we've played in since we won the cup.

 

[Little Ralphy]

Any knockout cup game is important, sure. Like you say you have to win or you're out.

But when we won the trophy in 95, the big games were the semi or the final. It wasn't the earlier rounds against newcastle or derby that people remember even though they too had to be won.

We beat wigan and nobody talks about that game as big one, anymore then they talk about boro, west ham or sunderland as bid wins for moyes.

A big game is a final because if you win, you win. A quarter final isn't a big game because there's still two games left and losing a semi gets you nothing, you try telling a man u or liverpool fan about that big quarter final game we had this year and see what the reaction is.

I get the impression you are bored and trying to argue a point you don't really believe in. Your argument doesn't stack up and makes no sense.

If we had won the Quarter Final, then the Semi Final would take on even more importance, and therefore that would be a more important game than the Quarter Final was. But as we didn't, the important game was the Quarter Final. That's how Cup games work and that's how players view them. Each game takes on added significance as you progress through the rounds and get closer to the trophy.

The Quarter Final was massive for us, this year especially. Because at that time it was looking unlikely we would qualify for Europe any other way due to Swansea winning the Capitol Cup, us being off the pace in the league (at the time), and two Championship sides still in the competition. It was massive for the fans because it was at home and 1 game away from a trip to Wembley. if you have a family especially you'll know the significance of a Wembley trip with Everton.

 

[Allezfan]

I get the impression you are bored and trying to argue a point you don't really believe in. Your argument doesn't stack up and makes no sense.

If we had won the Quarter Final, then the Semi Final would take on even more importance, and therefore that would be a more important game than the Quarter Final was. But as we didn't, the important game was the Quarter Final. That's how Cup games work and that's how players view them. Each game takes on added significance as you progress through the rounds and get closer to the trophy.

So the big game is the one you lose.

If it's the first cup game you play that's the big game, if it's the quarter final that is, if it's the final that is.

So it's the fact we lost it and so didn't get any further and thus played in bigger games, that makes it big.

So in saying we lost the biggest game of the year, that's a tautology. If we'd lost vs bolton or oldham or cheltenham, that would have been our biggest game of the year, if we'd gone further then millwall or city if they'd beaten would have been the biggest game of the year.

So we've lost the biggest game of the year every year we haven't won a trophy. And that's all that saying means; we haven't won a trophy.

Can't we just use "we haven't won a trophy" instead? It works for me as a phrase.

 

[Philw]

So Man City and Man United at home aren't classed as 'BIG GAMES' then?
I absolutely hate Moyes' record at certain grounds and in certain games, but it seems people change the definition of a 'big game' to suit an agenda.

If it was to win the league it'd be our biggest game of the season and one of the biggest in our history. I agree that people are moving the goalposts as to what constitutes a big game but what's riding on it is everything IMO.

I think yoiu are failing to grasp the difference between a "big" game and an "important" one.

Which is what the OP was all about.

(as it happens, QPR was a very important game, as well as a "big" one with much at stake as you point out re Europe, coming as it did between the two north London away fixtures)

I think the OP has worded his post poorly/chosen the wrong words. Man Utd and City at home are 'big' games, but not necessarily 'important' or high pressure games. We are not expected to win those games so there's less pressure on Moyes/the team to perform.

I don't see whom the opponents are having any bearing per se on what is classed as an "important game".

As opposed to a "big game" which is "big" in its own right no matter what the circumstances.

e.g. the derby.

An otherwise nondescript game assumes its own import because of the circumstances it is played in.

And when a team is after a specific prize then each game becomes more "important" than the games before.

Which is why I agree with the OP about Sunderland being one of our two most "important" games of the season.

If we had won that game we would still have a chance of getting in the CL....Arsenal play United next week and Spurs and Chelsea have still to metaphorically cut each other's throat.

There was still a wee glimmer of the hope that keeps this football supporting lark so compulsive.

But we lost and as far as I am concerned the season in any meaningful sense ended with said loss.

...

This ^^

Clearly Moyes is good enough then, after all he got to the final beating Liverpool and United, can't get bigger pressure than that. Also year after year when it comes to being in the mix when every game counts, Moyes gets the players firing on full and finishing in CL form so he must have that mentality in the league too..

No, cos we were not expected to win those games, so there's less pressure, whereas Sunderland we were expected to win.

Exactly.

We've known one loss would send us out of the race for europe since before reading, this just happened to be the only game of those 7 we've lost.

Either all 7 are big games or, more sensibly, none are. Because a big game you achieve something by winning. When you have to go on and win another 5 games in order for that win to mean anything, it's not a big game.

A proper big game is a final or a decider where you win this happens, you lose this happens with no disclaimers. The last one of those we've had in the league was coventry.

lol, so the fabled end of season high pressure and important games during our bids to secure Europe, are only high pressure and important if you start the run in a certain position in the table?
A position coincidentally we cannot credit Moyes with being in during previous runs, therefore making his previous European league position fights and achievements irrelevant to the discussion..
If you could see my face its not a surprised one to be reading that.

See previously comment about there only being 8 important games this season and attach some other similarly sarcastic comment relating to the selective nature of Moyes bashing statistics.. Just cannot be bothered anymore.

Yes and no. There is more pressure if you are higher up the table (see Kevin Keegan/Newcastle), but the games are roughly equally important.

If we'd lost against QPR we would have had no chance of getting europe.

Was that a big game?

Not really.

How'd you work that one out? We'd be 4 pts off where we are now with 6 more available to get, and Spurs still to play City. But it was still an important game, just not as important as Sunderland game was, at that point in time.

Every league game and every cup game is important.

What I don't get is how the ones we lose (quarter final vs wigan, league game vs sunderland) are the most important. And the ones we win (quarter final vs boro, cup game vs oldham, league game vs qpr) aren't.

You will never convince me that the sunderland game was the most important league game of the year, the way the op says, when even if we'd won it we'd still be in 6th and needing spurs to lose two games to even get 5th. It's just another small game of a season of small games. And we don't win enough of them over the season.

There are degrees of importance, it's not just a black and white situation. Sunderland was the most important game of the year so far/at that point in time. We needed to win to keep our chances of europe alive, and it was more important than Qpr etc as there are less game left hence less oportunity to make up any dropped points.

Yes.

Seriously have we reached the point where we've become so used to being crap that we view a quarter final as a big game, now? Really? A quarter final?

FFS. No wonder we tolerate the plucky little everton tag moyes tries to give us if we think that.

Any knockout cup game is important, sure. Like you say you have to win or you're out.

But when we won the trophy in 95, the big games were the semi or the final. It wasn't the earlier rounds against newcastle or derby that people remember even though they too had to be won.

We beat wigan and nobody talks about that game as big one, anymore then they talk about boro, west ham or sunderland as bid wins for moyes.

A big game is a final because if you win, you win. A quarter final isn't a big game because there's still two games left and losing a semi gets you nothing, you try telling a man u or liverpool fan about that big quarter final game we had this year and see what the reaction is.

A qtr final nowadays is a more important game, cos in the current climate you win that and you are likely 1 win away from a European place as the chances are you will face a top 4 side in the final. To me at this point in time that is a big game for us, and a high pressure one when you're facing the likes of Wigan.

 

[harry]

So if we use your logic, Fulham is a MASSIVE game?

It would have been as would Liverpool if we had beaten Fulham, and so on. but it doesnt matter because we lost.

 

[Philw]

So the big game is the one you lose.

If it's the first cup game you play that's the big game, if it's the quarter final that is, if it's the final that is.

So it's the fact we lost it and so didn't get any further and thus played in bigger games, that makes it big.

So in saying we lost the biggest game of the year, that's a tautology. If we'd lost vs bolton or oldham or cheltenham, that would have been our biggest game of the year, if we'd gone further then millwall or city if they'd beaten would have been the biggest game of the year.

So we've lost the biggest game of the year every year we haven't won a trophy. And that's all that saying means; we haven't won a trophy.

Can't we just use "we haven't won a trophy" instead? It works for me as a phrase.

You're either thick, stubborn, or being purposely obtuse with the start of this post. Clearly the qtr was the biggest, because as you state we didn't win it, so there wasn't a 'bigger' game to supercede it. Obviously if we lose in the first round that's' not quite as big a game, in the same way that qpr wasn't as big a game as sunderland. There's a direct correlation between 'closeness to the end' and importance/'bigness' that you seem to be completely ignoring.

 

[Allezfan]

You're either thick, stubborn, or being purposely obtuse with the start of this post. Clearly the qtr was the biggest, because as you state we didn't win it, so there wasn't a 'bigger' game to supercede it. Obviously if we lose in the first round that's' not quite as big a game, in the same way that qpr wasn't as big a game as sunderland. There's a direct correlation between 'closeness to the end' and importance/'bigness' that you seem to be completely ignoring.

No it's fine the big game is the one you lose, I get it.

As the Op says we tend to lose the games we lose. It's undeniable.

 

[toffee-fellaini]

Moyes record away at United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal

Played 44

won 0

 

[Allezfan]

Moyes record away at United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal

Played 44

won 0

One of those games we were already certain to finish 4th and no possible result would have had us finish either lower or higher.

If that's a big game, a game that literally made no difference to anything at all against a team from the other end of the country who we have no real historical rivalry with, then I just about give up.

 

[toffee-fellaini]

One of those games we were already certain to finish 4th and no possible result would have had us finish either lower or higher.

If that's a big game, a game that literally made no difference to anything at all against a team from the other end of the country who we have no real historical rivalry with, then I just about give up.

When we lose the derby in two weeks, I wonder if you still will be defending his record.

 

[Allezfan]

When we lose the derby in two weeks, I wonder if you still will be defending his record.

I'm not defending his record, I've wanted Moyes out for about two years and honestly would have trouble buying a season ticket, if that ginger bottler is still at the club next year.

What I'm defending is statistics and the english language from the way they're being butchered by people in this thread to suit agendas.