Cycling thread

[Yarrgh]

Honest question. Aren't all professional cyclist a bunch of shameless drug honkers?

Almost every cyclist who is any good has rumours floating about over them as far as I can see from my limited interest in the sport. It's a complete turn off for me as that's my perception of it all.

How is the sport being cleaned up? As far as I can see, it's a case of TUEs and better manipulations of the processes to enable the 'better run' teams and nations get an unfair advantage.

Hand on your hearts time for the lads who love this sport, how do you see it with regards to PEDs - am I completely missing the point and living in the Armstrongian past, or is it a sport that has actually cleaned its act up?

 

[Tubey]

If you're winning at that sport, you're juicing. It's as simple as that.

Common sense tells you that, because a clean cyclist wouldn't be able to compete with a juicing cyclist of roughly the same ability. So for the likes of Wiggins/Froome to be clean, they'd have to be superhuman in comparison to their peers. Not just a bit more talented and have a bit better genes and raw athleticism; they'd have to be literally superhuman.

I mean look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

... and these are just the ones caught, and I'm hazarding a guess that's only about 5% of those that do it.

No problem with those who enjoy the sport; but don't try and defend it as legitimate competition. It's faker than WWE at this point.

 

[Armel]

Honest question. Aren't all professional cyclist a bunch of shameless drug honkers?

Almost every cyclist who is any good has rumours floating about over them as far as I can see from my limited interest in the sport. It's a complete turn off for me as that's my perception of it all.

How is the sport being cleaned up? As far as I can see, it's a case of TUEs and better manipulations of the processes to enable the 'better run' teams and nations get an unfair advantage.

Hand on your hearts time for the lads who love this sport, how do you see it with regards to PEDs - am I completely missing the point and living in the Armstrongian past, or is it a sport that has actually cleaned its act up?

No there are loads of cyclist that are riding clean. Clean as in not misusing the TUE system for performance enhancing purposes. Mostly all the riders that ride for teams that are part of the MPCC (in reality 7/18 WT teams). They aren't allowed to use corticosteroids when racing, no heavy painkillers etc ...

An example Tim Wellens; he doesn't win a lot since he has sun allergy and he has trouble breathing in hot weather. He would be entitled to take corticosteroids and inhalers but he refuses because he says it isn't fair. So he's basically only a good cyclist at the beginning of the season and towards the end when it's not hot. Sort of limits his career.

Same with Tom Dumoulin; rides for an MPCC team; refuses to take inhalers and corticosteroids and the whole bunch. He's a bit surprised about all the Asthmatics in Team Sky and says that if you suffer from severe asthma then cycling isn't for you. He specifically had issues with the injections that Wiggins received because the effects last quite a long time etc ...

Bardet...

There are loads of others; but I chose these three because I quite like them.

Sky isn't part of the MPCC, as is the British cycling federation (and quite a bit of other teams and federations)

The whole TUE system is horrible and desperately needs a revamp.

But again it's not like it's exclusive to cycling. Loads of footballers play with corticosteroid injections etc... For some reason there's a narrative that it's that much worse in cycling but it simply isn't. Athletics etc. are much worse. Oh and a lot of these other sports have lowish numbers because they aren't being subjected to the same level of testing as cycling.

 

[orly]

Honest question. Aren't all professional cyclist a bunch of shameless drug honkers?

lollollol

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Honest question. Aren't all professional cyclist a bunch of shameless drug honkers?

Almost every cyclist who is any good has rumours floating about over them as far as I can see from my limited interest in the sport. It's a complete turn off for me as that's my perception of it all.

How is the sport being cleaned up? As far as I can see, it's a case of TUEs and better manipulations of the processes to enable the 'better run' teams and nations get an unfair advantage.

Hand on your hearts time for the lads who love this sport, how do you see it with regards to PEDs - am I completely missing the point and living in the Armstrongian past, or is it a sport that has actually cleaned its act up?

They devote more time and effort to catching dopers than probably any sport out there. Sadly they're easy pickings because:

a) They have a history of this so it fits into the narrative people have
b) They're not a mainstream sport so it's safe for the media to go after them because they're not establishment

All of which makes it like shooting fish in a barrel to publish half arsed accusations because 'most' fans can't be bothered to explore properly and faux shock horror when someone gets caught, whilst turning a completely blind eye to the abject lack of testing in mainstream sports (thinking football, rugby and tennis especially) and even glossing over those who are caught (Guardiola anyone?).

It allows casual observers such as yourself to continue with the 'they're all at it' line without questioning why that might be and whether other sports you enjoy might be doing a whole lot worse, except they have no interest in finding out.

If you're winning at that sport, you're juicing. It's as simple as that.

Common sense tells you that, because a clean cyclist wouldn't be able to compete with a juicing cyclist of roughly the same ability. So for the likes of Wiggins/Froome to be clean, they'd have to be superhuman in comparison to their peers. Not just a bit more talented and have a bit better genes and raw athleticism; they'd have to be literally superhuman.

I mean look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

... and these are just the ones caught, and I'm hazarding a guess that's only about 5% of those that do it.

No problem with those who enjoy the sport; but don't try and defend it as legitimate competition. It's faker than WWE at this point.

So says an armchair fan who gets his insights from a hopelessly out of touch media. You bang on about Team Sky, were you also complaining about Ferguson being a drug cheat when he was kept on the field by regular cortisone injections?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/e/everton/2250670.stm

No, of course you weren't, because footballers don't dope.

 

[Tubey]

So says an armchair fan who gets his insights from a hopelessly out of touch media. You bang on about Team Sky, were you also complaining about Ferguson being a drug cheat when he was kept on the field by regular cortisone injections?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/e/everton/2250670.stm

No, of course you weren't, because footballers don't dope.

Of course they do, but you know as well as I do that the difference with cycling is in how it takes place in stages over a short period of time and, therefore, there's a massive emphasis on recovery, because the better you recover, the better your peaks of stamina.

That's why the majority of them are doing it. It's bizarre to me to even deny it. But you know what, honestly, I have no problem with it - my problem is with trying to defend it as not happening (because it is) and that they just don't let them get on with it, which is the only solution at this point. Let it be like F1, so they have overarching rules for the cars but they can 'use whatever engine they want'.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Of course they do, but you know as well as I do that the difference with cycling is in how it takes place in stages over a short period of time and, therefore, there's a massive emphasis on recovery, because the better you recover, the better your peaks of stamina.

That's why the majority of them are doing it. It's bizarre to me to even deny it. But you know what, honestly, I have no problem with it - my problem is with trying to defend it as not happening (because it is) and that they just don't let them get on with it, which is the only solution at this point. Let it be like F1, so they have overarching rules for the cars but they can 'use whatever engine they want'.

Because that literally has no use in any other sport ever. What I know for a fact is that cycling goes to greater lengths to regulate doping than any other sport in the world, and then people accuse it of being dirty when they actually find people. Seriously, where is the parliamentary enquiry into Guardiola, given that he was pinged for nandralone as a player, his Barcelona team were widely implicated in the Puerto affair and whose Man City side have been fined for missed drug tests?

Why is it that you, and indeed anyone else, is happy to brush all of that under the carpet? The sport has a long history of doping, and it's amazing how few players complain about the number of games any more. It's almost as if there is some secret to their recovery, because the better you recover...

I won't hold my breath whilst you campaign for footballers to have a biological passport though.

 

[Moomin]

I remember watching a documentary " Friday " Cyclist in that was dealing drugs.

 

[Tubey]

Because that literally has no use in any other sport ever. What I know for a fact is that cycling goes to greater lengths to regulate doping than any other sport in the world, and then people accuse it of being dirty when they actually find people. Seriously, where is the parliamentary enquiry into Guardiola, given that he was pinged for nandralone as a player, his Barcelona team were widely implicated in the Puerto affair and whose Man City side have been fined for missed drug tests?

Why is it that you, and indeed anyone else, is happy to brush all of that under the carpet? The sport has a long history of doping, and it's amazing how few players complain about the number of games any more. It's almost as if there is some secret to their recovery, because the better you recover...

I won't hold my breath whilst you campaign for footballers to have a biological passport though.

Actually, you'll find on here that I've laughed at how Lionel Messi was allowed to dope pretty much openly to become the player he is. Hilarious in fact that it's basically never brought up. The idea footballers don't dope is as stupid as the suggestion no gay footballers exist.

But the difference is it's a team sport versus a largely individual one. Track and field has doping issues too (obviously). Loads of other sports do (obviously), but the difference with cycling is this constant, ludicrous holier than thou attitude that everything is great now and the 'heroes' of the day are definitely not doping and that anyone who suggests as such is bitter or uninformed (see your comments on Kimmage - bitter, twisted, simply for highlighting the ludicrous and obvious.) You get the odd Usain Bolt that is idolised, but generally with track and field there's an air of suspicion that is allowed to exist. If track and field catch a high profile cheat, the community don't turn around and go "well, that's the last of that for sure!"

Am I an armchair observer? Yes, absolutely, but in this instance I can say I'm probably more informed because I can objectively look at the situation, because I don't love the sport and get blinded into wanting to believe in the 'superheroes'.

I'm not criticising the cycling governing bodies as well by the way - I'm saying that they have absolutely no chance of sorting it out, because it's ingrained. If they can see a way to cheat, they'll cheat. You know why? Because the rewards to doing so vastly outweigh the negatives - win a Tour de France and get away with it and you're set for life. Finish 2nd? Nobody gives a toss. So you have to win, so you'll do anything to win.

As said, by all means love the sport - it has high drama, amazing athleticism, it's fantastic. But don't delude yourself into pretending everything is on the up and up and that it's legitimate competition, because the reality is there's probably some fella finishing 20th every race who's better than the 19 who finished ahead of him but wasn't competing with what is a real life cheat mode activated.

 

[Armel]

Of course they do, but you know as well as I do that the difference with cycling is in how it takes place in stages over a short period of time and, therefore, there's a massive emphasis on recovery, because the better you recover, the better your peaks of stamina.

That's why the majority of them are doing it. It's bizarre to me to even deny it. But you know what, honestly, I have no problem with it - my problem is with trying to defend it as not happening (because it is) and that they just don't let them get on with it, which is the only solution at this point. Let it be like F1, so they have overarching rules for the cars but they can 'use whatever engine they want'.

That’s only true for stage races tbf. Only a part of road cycling. The other being one day races. You have ample time to recuperate if you’re a classics rider. Say you want to do well in the Flanders classics then you basically race from February to April. Then you have a break; traditionally just before or after the Amstel gold race. Most of the time you have a week/3-4 days between races. You’ll be weaker in the beginning since it’s impossible to peak for such a long period.

After the break traditionally you’ll probably ride the TdF as a helper (probably until the mountains and then you go home) or say you want to do well in the WC then you’ll probably take a longer break and ride the first two weeks of the Vuelta. It all depends on the sort of cyclist you are.

It’s more convincing than KDB or Kante running 17 K every three days for months on end.

I don’t understand your holier than thou comment. You should read a French, Belgian or other traditional cycling country newspaper. The performances are constantly being questioned, but this doesn’t detract from the pleasure. Healthy scepticism after loads of people had their hearts broken in the past. Everybody knows full well that it’s cleaner then it used to be but nobody’s under the illusion that everything is fixed. That’s a bit of a Team Sky - British cycling introduction; they said they were the best super clean and everybody else was crap and it was a continental problem and they were better than everybody else... From the past years I can name a number of grand tour winners that I am quite confident about that they’ve doped - under no illusion here. As there are that I am quite certain about that they were clean. Tbh I’m still a fan of some of the offenders of the past because they brought me loads of entertainment -they had no choice.

I think what people get annoyed about is saying that cycling is worse than other sports because it clearly isn’t.

Also who the hell in the cycling community says things like ‘that’s the last one for sure’. No it isn’t there will be other ones. In fact if anything the latest MPCC report highlighted that there were in fact a bit more dopers and more concerning from the better teams.

“ROAD CYCLING: INCREASE IN THE NUMBER OF DOPING CASES IN YEAR 2017

In 2017, 3 more doping cases than in 2016 were revealed. Even if this is a small increase, it particularly involves the world’s best cyclists. Compared to 2016, 1st and 2nd division’s teams are far more concerned: 8 cases in 2017 vs only 3 in 2016.”

You can make a career out of becoming second btw. Poulidor did and he’s a legend. Very amicable person. Always beaten by Anquetil and others. Probably helps that Anquetil wasn’t the most upstanding human. On and off the bike (impregnating his step-daughter etc...). Top 10-20 in the TdF is a big achievement and partially responsible for some of the boring TdFs that we had to endure for the last years... Number 7 counterattacks number 8 etc.. Very stale. Number 7 should let number 8 go and take a gamble that way the race would be more interesting.

 

[anton66]

I'm thinking of entering the Tour De France.
Will I need to go the doctors now and tell them I've become asthmatic all of a sudden?

 

[Yarrgh]

Thanks for your responses @Armel and @Bruce Wayne

 

[davek]

Tom Dumoulin; rides for an MPCC team; refuses to take inhalers and corticosteroids and the whole bunch. He's a bit surprised about all the Asthmatics in Team Sky and says that if you suffer from severe asthma then cycling isn't for you. He specifically had issues with the injections that Wiggins received because the effects last quite a long time etc ...

lol

Excellent.

 

[davek]

Of course they do, but you know as well as I do that the difference with cycling is in how it takes place in stages over a short period of time and, therefore, there's a massive emphasis on recovery, because the better you recover, the better your peaks of stamina.

That's why the majority of them are doing it. It's bizarre to me to even deny it. But you know what, honestly, I have no problem with it - my problem is with trying to defend it as not happening (because it is) and that they just don't let them get on with it, which is the only solution at this point. Let it be like F1, so they have overarching rules for the cars but they can 'use whatever engine they want'.

Correct.

It's not a moral issue for me over the dope taken. We all know that performances like those recorded aren't natural. Men and women simply cant ride that fast and long over the terrain you see in the grand tours without stimulants. It's a spectacle for consumption and the professional authorities in cycling have turned a blind eye to it all traditionally. But the overwhelming reason they wont let them "just get on with it" is because it would undermine the geo-politics of the British state who are at the forefront of the West's attack on Putin's Russia - Britain leads that attack on Putin by capturing and/or influencing the soft power of international sports institutions. The last thing in the world the British state wants is a relaxation on drug enforcement. That's why there's severe embarrassment about Britain's successes now having been revealed to be fuelled by the use of PEDs.

 

[Goat]

Horse Racing = The Sport of Kings
Football = The beautiful game
Cycling = SMACKHEADS