Carl O'Ancelotti
Player Valuation: £20m
There were clearly "some key issues regarding the competence and behaviour of the secret services and police in this matter".....
....to put it mildly.
Current Affairs Critically ill man is former Russian spy
- Thread starter GrandOldTeam
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....to put it mildly.
tsubaki
Player Valuation: £90m
Which is arguing something must be true because of the absence of proof, which is what May did.
tsubaki
Player Valuation: £90m
So you were inquiring into something that you think they did a good job in?
Any intelligence picture is never 100% accurate. You collect pieces of the puzzle from many diverse sources. Humint, Sigint, and Elint will have been part of this investigation. So in response to your last post, there will be evidence / proof but the likes of you and I will never know if it’s existence, as to reveal that evidence would reveal a countries abilities to gather intelligence and that is something no nation state would ever divulge publicly.
That's very very generous of you
. Seems like not much has changed when the secret service can't 'keep tabs on GRU agents'. Not once but numerous occasions. Even not informing the government agency responsible for issuing visas. When the troubles were on it was not uncommon for people with 'born in Belfast' on their UK passport to be stopped constantly while travelling.. But these two GRU guys are allowed to roam willy nilly and not kept tabs on. Standards must be slipping.
peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
Indeed. Lessons are learnt from both good and bad practice.....
Do you still think this?
Mutzo Nutzo said:
Okay - I see your point there regarding Putin and no it has never made 100% complete sense to me that this was a state (Russian) sanctioned hit. So for now let's take Putin out of the equation of actual involvement here and let's look at the possibilty that it was potentially high-ranking FSB officer/officers that went off piste and decided to sanction this hit out of pure revenge. Let us not forget that Skripal was a double agent and he must have betrayed many intelligence operations/personnel over the years, so I have no doubt that there were people out there with the motive and the capabilities to perform this hit. - The counter arguament would be, why didn't they have Skripal bumped off in Jail when they had the chance. Ill come onto that bit later.
This brings into question as to how exactly they were able to get hold of this nerve agent and how where they able to transport it into the UK undetected, as you cannot simply pop it into a tupperware box and stick it in your hand luggage. So lets assume that they somehow managed to gain access to this substance (this would indicate authority control and support from high circles in Russian military intelligence) and then they had to transport it into this country. You cannot handle this stuff without a serious level of expertiese and experience and even then, given the accounts of people who have been involved in developing this nerve agent it can still be deadly to the unwary. So handling it and moving it would have required a high degree of skill, training and precision. Not the sort of attributes associated with your average terrorist.
So the next problem would be how to get it into the UK with the minimum risk of detection. The only safest and surest method to achieve this would be via diplomatic shipments that are not subject to normal customs checks. That alone would indicate a number of high-ranking officials within the Russian Govt/Intelligence service must have been aware of what was going on even if Putin and his inner council were not.
Right...now back to the issue of why he wasn't bumped off in the gulag when they had the chance. My own suspicion is that Skripal was brought back into play by the Russians. He had contacts in the UK, he could be of some (limited use) to the Russians. Maybe just maybe he was still active but was then turned again by British Intelligence and starting feeding false info back to Russia. Could this have been the straw that broke the camels back forcing the sanctined hit on the Skripals?
Do you still think those two had the expertise and experience to handle this 'novichok'?
Do you still think that they could only have gotten in via diplomatic shipments? Rather than through Gatwick.
Alexander Petrov at Gatwick airport at on March 2nd 2018.
Ruslan Boshirov at Gatwick airport on March 2nd 2018.
Britain charges two Russian men in novichok poisoning case
There's something about those photos that I can't quite put my finger on.
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Do you still think this?
Mutzo Nutzo said:
Okay - I see your point there regarding Putin and no it has never made 100% complete sense to me that this was a state (Russian) sanctioned hit. So for now let's take Putin out of the equation of actual involvement here and let's look at the possibilty that it was potentially high-ranking FSB officer/officers that went off piste and decided to sanction this hit out of pure revenge. Let us not forget that Skripal was a double agent and he must have betrayed many intelligence operations/personnel over the years, so I have no doubt that there were people out there with the motive and the capabilities to perform this hit. - The counter arguament would be, why didn't they have Skripal bumped off in Jail when they had the chance. Ill come onto that bit later.
This brings into question as to how exactly they were able to get hold of this nerve agent and how where they able to transport it into the UK undetected, as you cannot simply pop it into a tupperware box and stick it in your hand luggage. So lets assume that they somehow managed to gain access to this substance (this would indicate authority control and support from high circles in Russian military intelligence) and then they had to transport it into this country. You cannot handle this stuff without a serious level of expertiese and experience and even then, given the accounts of people who have been involved in developing this nerve agent it can still be deadly to the unwary. So handling it and moving it would have required a high degree of skill, training and precision. Not the sort of attributes associated with your average terrorist.
So the next problem would be how to get it into the UK with the minimum risk of detection. The only safest and surest method to achieve this would be via diplomatic shipments that are not subject to normal customs checks. That alone would indicate a number of high-ranking officials within the Russian Govt/Intelligence service must have been aware of what was going on even if Putin and his inner council were not.
Right...now back to the issue of why he wasn't bumped off in the gulag when they had the chance. My own suspicion is that Skripal was brought back into play by the Russians. He had contacts in the UK, he could be of some (limited use) to the Russians. Maybe just maybe he was still active but was then turned again by British Intelligence and starting feeding false info back to Russia. Could this have been the straw that broke the camels back forcing the sanctined hit on the Skripals?
Do you still think those two had the expertise and experience to handle this 'novichok'?
Do you still think that they could only have gotten in via diplomatic shipments? Rather than through Gatwick.
Alexander Petrov at Gatwick airport at on March 2nd 2018.
Ruslan Boshirov at Gatwick airport on March 2nd 2018.
Britain charges two Russian men in novichok poisoning case
There's something about those photos that I can't quite put my finger on.
If you are referring to the identical timestamps and rubbing yourself off thinking "how can that be" - "they must be false images" then take a look at this image of international arrivals at Gatwick as it might just piss on your parade.
They obviously walked together to arrivals and then split through seperate gates - cameras then clocked them at the same time. It's not rocket science Segei.
As for all the other stuff I will summarise as follows:-
1. GRU goons 1 and 2 smuggled in the nerve agent to the UK in a perfume bottle - probably stored in their hold luggage
This is scary as hell...and shows a wanton disregard for human life as everyone on that plane was at risk.
2. They went to their hotel room and prepared the delivery mechanism on the bottle
They were obviously trained and experienced handling this stuff as only small traces of the agent were discovered in their hotel room
3. They scouted out Salisbury and the Skripals house on the Saturday
caught again on many CCTV systems
4. They applied the nerve agent to the skripals doorhandle on Sunday morning whilst Sergei and his Daughter were visiting his wifes grave
caught again on cctv near to the Skripals house
5. They then dumped the perfume bottle containg the nerve agent and did a sharp exit back to the motherland.
and we know what happened next to that poor woman
So this intel along with a lot of undisclosed intelligence gives the Police and CPS enough evidence to bring charges against these goons. I doubt theyll ever stand trial and they will no doubt take a dive off a building in Moscow or get smacked in a hit and run to cover up any loose ends.
Putin's standard response - in the words of Shaggy
It wasn't me!
NilSatisOptimum
Player Valuation: £70m
Seems to me these Russian agents were used because of their obvious stupidity. Plainly Russian raspberry blowing at the UK because they can now, see what transpires at the UN with our procrastinations regarding this incident. Not that much apart from a verbal rebuke and some meaningless sanctions that are easily circumvented is my guess.
peteblue
Welcome back Wayne
the USA, France, Germany, Canada have all got behind the U.K. on this. As the USA rep on the UNSC said, why doesn’t Russia just give up these two individuals to the U.K. for trial. There were some strong words spoken today at the UN denouncing Russia.
Of course our resident Russian troll will no doubt ignore what’s happening and query some totally unrelated incident.......
Of course our resident Russian troll will no doubt ignore what’s happening and query some totally unrelated incident.......
tsubaki
Player Valuation: £90m
There could be - but to make my point again that is to argue something without actually knowing if its true or not; you are just assuming that there must be.
tsubaki
Player Valuation: £90m
Well exactly.
I don't know if anyone reads it already, but if not the six-page special in the latest Private Eye (the one with two arses on the cover) will be a nice little education into why we (or more precisely, the current Government) are not going to do anything.
Sure it’s my point of view. Everyone has one. Only a judge and jury would be privy to seeing all the evidence in this wild and wacky case. As for the rest of us, well we can just argue about stuff on the internet.
NilSatisOptimum
Player Valuation: £70m
No not read it but I do think Russia has taken an opportunistic swipe at us because of our changing relationship with the EU. Suppose we could ramp it up to such an extent with Russia that we back ourselves into a corner because of clear and present danger, then pause Brexit or May uses it for political purposes with her Brexiteers and her proposal, that has me thinking, wonder if the European arrest warrant issued for these agents will be valid if Brexit happens. Reckon not...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44532500
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