That was a thoroughly professional win and performance from England, bounced back well after a poor display in the first test.
A few places have been cemented this series.
A few places have been cemented this series.
Cricket
- Thread starter summerisle
- Start date
Broad 10-67 match figures. That's an excellent return and he's been the stand out bowler these last two tests.
Chris O'Connor
Player Valuation: £35m
Yes their boards were impoverished in their golden period too so while it sounds the simple answer I'm not so sure it's that straightforward at all. I think the main difference in the modern day is the absolutely huge difference between the rewards on offer in white and red ball cricket, and there is no realistic way through that route to narrow that significantly enough. Pakistan, New Zealand and South Africa have had their stars thinking of giving tests a miss, de Villiers even when at his peak.
It's an easy glib solution, money would help but they're badly mismanaged too, Michael Holding waxes lyrical about the mismanagement.
Chris O'Connor
Player Valuation: £35m
Well done Chris Woakes with a 5 wickets haul, great achievement although only one mom Stuart Broad. The seamers worked well together and while Broad and Woakes took the plaudits there were contributions from all of them. The crosswind made it difficult to bowl in so perhaps not too surprising it was tough at times.
England have really beaten the weather in these last two tests, generally in recent memory we've been lucky with the weather at Old Trafford but these last two tests it's provided the real opposition. You have to absolutely dominate to win inside 3.5 or 4 days and they've had to.
England have really beaten the weather in these last two tests, generally in recent memory we've been lucky with the weather at Old Trafford but these last two tests it's provided the real opposition. You have to absolutely dominate to win inside 3.5 or 4 days and they've had to.
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England have a fantastic group of bowlers, looking good for when Broad and Anderson finally hang up their boots.
Yeah, it’s a real shame that he can’t seem to put it together. I suppose he’s the type of player that makes you realise how much we take competition for places for granted here. He’d have been binned off in the same way as vince, ballance, Roy etc have if he was English, but there just isn’t the same depth available to the windies.
Well I agree but there's a few points on that. Firstly the level of inequality and poverty in the West Indies has really grown over the last 25 years (matching their decline). I also agree that other countries face pressures, I mean without IPL I would imagine Kevin Pietersen would ahve played for another 4-5 years for England. At some point you'd imagine Stokes will look that route as well, maybe he played abother cycle of Ashes series in Auatralia and here and looks to do it. However it affects the West Indies more than most, as they simply don't have the money to offer to keep their players playing test cricket.
I haven't seen what Holding has said about it. I'd be interested to see that. To an extent though, there mis management is a consequence of the broader problems they face, as opposed to a cause of it.
Anderson, Broad and Woakes are world class in these conditions. No other way to describe them really. I mean in England they all average mid to low 20's with the ball.
For a captain it must be easy having those 3. Broad and Anderson you just give them the ball and let them get on with it. Even though he didn't get many wickets this time, the control Anderson gave was fantastic as well.
As I've said throughout there are questions as to what England do in other series. However hard to see any of the above 3 left out in England.
Genuine squad of 8 or 9 test standard bowlers, one of the reasons I didn't mind them leaving first teamers out here and there in this series
I've spoken a fair bit on it, so I know I'm boring myself a little, but Gayle, Russell, Pollard, Bravo and Hetymer (to a degree) are all big misses really.
In all honesty though, modern tests players are just not suited to these conditions. Far better players than these West Indian lads have comeover and failed, Australia minus Smith were pretty hopeless (and it wasn't even that cloudy) while India the summer before looked hopeless too.
With the introduction of DRS and more LBW's being given it has made playing the swinging ball very difficult. You have to be a really good player to get through that.
Yeah I agree with all that. I just mean with regard to hope in general, he’s a player who has a lot of ‘talent’ but hasn’t really given any level of return on it. There are literally dozens of county cricketers in England who could play 30 tests and average in the mid 20s, but you don’t get the chance to do that here. It’s probably something we take for granted.
As an aside, Hope is also a reminder that just being able to play some great shots doesn’t make you a great player. It’s like looking at the Kean, Gomes, Bernard etc threads in the Everton forum. The game is every bit as much about what you can’t do as what you can do.
Yes I agree with all of that. I'll often use cricket as a good examplar to wider society, that being a good stroke player/having good technique and scoring lots of runs are fundamentally quite different things (though certainly some overlap).
Hope looks a lovely player, but mentallyhas he got enough to turn that into scoring runs? A lot of the game is about decision making. As you say though, the cupboard is quite bare, and in truth they are probably the best example of how modern batsman are just not built to play test match cricket in the numbers they once were. (And by that I don't men Sibley/Burns is necessarily the answer either, but someone like Joe Root is).
Sirius Black
Chris O'Connor
Player Valuation: £35m
Tbh my understanding is it's still the most popular sport with the youngsters, although granted the influence of American sports has been growing steadily. The first class structure just isn't there to the extent it should be and the inter island rivalry, inter nation rivalry really is still a problem when it comes to selection.
Chris Gayle is now from their past, one of their more recent greats, he really was their first real superstar to recognise the one day franchise route was were it was at, and then target that rather than the pittance firm playing tests. But he did have a test career but now the years have simply just caught up and his legs couldn't take it.
Kieron Pollard came onto the scene with the inter island white ball games and Stanford all stars circus, quickly establishing his reputation as a big hitter who could bowl quickish pace too. The West Indies board seemed to have s policy of earmarking such cricketers more towards the one day World Cup route, but he never really sustained any real run in their one day side, and the attraction of the IPL was obvious, It was there where he would eventually go big. He was however named as one of the nine reserves for their last world cup squad but just hast really played enough first class cricket.
Russell also has his own story but the common theme is the big money IPL. Because of when the West Indies first class season takes place it's almost impossible to do both and no amount of subsidising their cricket could change this The gap is just so gigantic, and thats even if they are far better paid. First class cricket attracts no crowds at all and test cricket is played in a similar atmosphere to that we saw at an empty Old Trafford. Their commercial deals are pathetic largely as a consequence, and the money earner TV should be, it just isn't.
Holding despairs at the lack of talented administrators, inter island squabbling and basic competence in the running of their affairs. It's poorly led and that just infiltrates down. Money cannot cure all their ills, it's as much getting the leadership to drive the structure needed in their first class setup.
The IPL will still be held at the same time every non Covid year, no amount of money to the Windies board will change that, but first you need talented administrators to organise the first class structure and start to grow their income by grabbing the opportunities available, something they're not doing arm but haven't done for years.
They are developing now faster pitches again, what madman thought slow turning and no pace wickets in the Carribbean would help entertain anyone? Cricket money can't change societies or erradicate poverty. Some areas of India and especially Pakistan are desperately poor, the shanty towns (slums) of South Africa too, and you need a competent board and first class structure to even make a difference in cricket. They were never well run even in their glory years, and why Clive Lioyd was such a remarkable captain at unifying them to a common identity, they almost did it despite the board, the structure and the pay. A key difference is also that so many West Indians then came over to England to play for our first class counties, this is often missed as a reason.
No money isn't the cure, it may help a small amount but it's a drop in the ocean compared to other attractions, the problems are far more deep rooted for me both in organisation and when their actual season takes place, the IPl will always take those it sees as worth it
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gonetomorrow
Player Valuation: £80m
I'm looking forward to the Pakistan series now. Should be a tougher test. Naseem Shah is the new pace sensation for the tourists.