Current Affairs Coronavirus Thread - Serious stuff !!!

[tsubaki]

So, come Thursday or whenever, the EMA will either reconfirm that AZ is safe, say further analysis is required or pull the plug on it. If they pull the plug, then the ‘pause’ countries Politicians will pat themselves on the back and their people who have had the jab will go into panic mode. If they say further analysis is required, the ’pause‘ politicians will again pat themselves on the back and their people will become vaccine sceptics. If they say the AZ is safe and should continue, the Politicians can accept the decision, give themselves credit for being cautious but having a population who now haven’t a clue what to do. If they say it’s safe but the Politicians do not accept the decision, the vaccine rollout programme will go into free fall.....in between all of this people will continue to catch Covid and die. There is no upside to this .......

Strange that you can see political interference everywhere in Europe, but when it comes to here it’s only ever the scientists or civil servants to blame.

 

[peteblue]

My understanding is the reason they’re worried these are clots are in the brain that are generally rare enough, rather than the more usual clots that are common in the legs or lungs and also they are happening in younger health care professionals and public servants were you generally get fewer and rarer events like this.

So comparing common clot stats with this-is not really comparing like for like, need to be comparing brain clots in this age cohort of vaccinated v non vaccinated people of the same age to see if there’s something going on. Which i believe will be the focus. So the logic is there and i dont see a reason to take a risk really, especially as most countries are still going through their vulnerable & older cohorts with multiple co-morbities. Yet a possible trend has been alerted in younger health care professionals and public servants now in Norway, Austria and Italy.

I'm hoping it all comes back thumbs up, but i can understand the caution - i don't think a few days of pausing is that big of a deal, almost all countries have the capacity to do 250k jabs a day, but EU countries certainly haven't had that supply yet, so catching up will be straight forward, AZ have proven an unreliable partner to a lot of countries, so a pause itself may help AZ with a bit of breathing room.

“The EU has so far only administered 6.9 million of its AstraZeneca vaccines out of a total stock of 14.9 million doses, leaving just under eight million unused. Germany has used 1.35 million of its 3.06 million jabs, France has administered 919,115 of its 2.38 million and Italy has handed out 677,651 of its 1.5 million.”

But putting aside the inept rollout of what they already had, what happens to those people who have now had the first AZ jab ? Will they be getting the second ?...what happens to the people if they continue the ban ?.....

 

[gonetomorrow]

The one person I know who has stubbornly refused a vaccine has jumped on this AZ story with glee. Silly old sod.
I told her I'm not doing her garden till she gets vaccinated.
Deep down she's just scared of injections really. Goes back to childhood experiences.

 

[BlueStevie35]

On the foreign holidays front, have to admit I’m a bit apprehensive on it, we’ve got a family holiday booked for August at a villa in Spain but my mum is secretly hoping we can move it a year, mainly because of the kids as 4 of the five are/will be 5 and under with the youngest (due hopefully next week) only being 4/5 months when we go

 

[peteblue]

Strange that you can see political interference everywhere in Europe, but when it comes to here it’s only ever the scientists or civil servants to blame.

What I see in Europe is political and economic opportunism, coupled with an absolute lack of any kind of leadership. I don’t give a toss as to whether European countries use the AZ vaccine. I’m just glad we are away from the current madness and panic infection gripping Europe more surely than Covid.....

 

[Neiler]

“The EU has so far only administered 6.9 million of its AstraZeneca vaccines out of a total stock of 14.9 million doses, leaving just under eight million unused. Germany has used 1.35 million of its 3.06 million jabs, France has administered 919,115 of its 2.38 million and Italy has handed out 677,651 of its 1.5 million.”

But putting aside the inept rollout of what they already had, what happens to those people who have now had the first AZ jab ? Will they be getting the second ?...what happens to the people if they continue the ban ?.....

What's that source for the figures mate?

If you look at them in detail, you can see the policy many of the nations are following - a first dose isn't given unless the second dose is available, so looks to me as the over hang are allocated second doses, probably responsible given AZ unpredictable delivery and unreliability overall.

My sense would be that they would probably act of a principal of informed consent, that would likely be the guiding ethic, but i'm hoping the pause is tempory - its not just the EU that have paused mate.

 

[tsubaki]

What I see in Europe is political and economic opportunism, coupled with an absolute lack of any kind of leadership. I don’t give a toss as to whether European countries use the AZ vaccine. I’m just glad we are away from the current madness and panic infection gripping Europe more surely than Covid.....

i know, it’s just mad that you say that whilst supporting political and economic opportunists who are terrible at leadership here

 

[peteblue]

The one person I know who has stubbornly refused a vaccine has jumped on this AZ story with glee. Silly old sod.
I told her I'm not doing her garden till she gets vaccinated.
Deep down she's just scared of injections really. Goes back to childhood experiences.

I feel sorry for people who are terrified of having a vaccine, but I think it is incumbent upon all of us to persuade people such as her and anti-vaxxers to get the vaccine to protect themselves and everybody else. It’s good that our politicians across all four nations are incredibly supportive of the vaccines, unlike the shower over the channel.....

 

[peteblue]

What's that source for the figures mate?

If you look at them in detail, you can see the policy many of the nations are following - a first dose isn't given unless the second dose is available, so looks to me as the over hang are allocated second doses, probably responsible given AZ unpredictable delivery and unreliability overall.

My sense would be that they would probably act of a principal of informed consent, that would likely be the guiding ethic, but i'm hoping the pause is tempory - its not just the EU that have paused mate.

The numbers I just pulled from an article in today’s Telegraph, and cba trying to find EU data.

I agree that they may well be keeping supply back so that the second jab can be guaranteed.

If the ban continues, what will people do. A principle of informed consent just gets the government off the hook, but what will be going through peoples heads. How much pain and worry is being created by a ‘pause’ based on almost no data. I read that one scientist was speaking with colleagues in Portugal and they have absolutely no data, but are just going with the flow.....lunacy.......

 

[Chris O'Connor]

My understanding is the reason they’re worried these are clots are in the brain that are generally rare enough, rather than the more usual clots that are common in the legs or lungs and also they are happening in younger health care professionals and public servants were you generally get fewer and rarer events like this.

So comparing common clot stats with this-is not really comparing like for like, need to be comparing brain clots in this age cohort of vaccinated v non vaccinated people of the same age to see if there’s something going on. Which i believe will be the focus. So the logic is there and i dont see a reason to take a risk really, especially as most countries are still going through their vulnerable & older cohorts with multiple co-morbities. Yet a possible trend has been alerted in younger health care professionals and public servants now in Norway, Austria and Italy.

I'm hoping it all comes back thumbs up, but i can understand the caution - i don't think a few days of pausing is that big of a deal, almost all countries have the capacity to do 250k jabs a day, but EU countries certainly haven't had that supply yet, so catching up will be straight forward, AZ have proven an unreliable partner to a lot of countries, so a pause itself may help AZ with a bit of breathing room.

It's very clear the benefits of being vaccinated far outweigh the concerns over a really rather rare blood clot. Statistically speaking it's not even close the risks are all on one side, the side of pausing and stopping, the numbers and risks involved on each side of the ledger really say we have to be vaccinating.

While numbers on take up are very high for the Pfizer jab they're truly absymal for the AZ one even before this latest episode, with more than 50% refusal across many European countries. A pause for the AZ jab, far from helping will only send this refusal rate rocketing even after any all clear. The reputational damage can't be undone by being given a rather vacuous all clear, of course it can't.

There is already a tendency for side effects to be expected as will always happen when fear, rumours and stories spread. As we've seen before, social media can ignite the flames, fake news can become fact for many and paranoia the normal for all. Some countries have vaccinated hospital staff in one block with many already booking the following day off for the now 'expected' sideeffects. The media then get on board reporting increased absence rates among health professionals, such is the chaotic vaccination program in some countries.

Not vaccinating and then vaccinating over 65's has made the analysis across Europe more problematic but evidence from the US has shown no rise in unexpected thrombotic episodes.

The numbers involved compared to vaccinations given is really very tiny and has to be put in proportion, this isn't a pause without consequences.

 

[Neiler]

The numbers I just pulled from an article in today’s Telegraph, and cba trying to find EU data.

I agree that they may well be keeping supply back so that the second jab can be guaranteed.

If the ban continues, what will people do. A principle of informed consent just gets the government off the hook, but what will be going through peoples heads. How much pain and worry is being created by a ‘pause’ based on almost no data. I read that one scientist was speaking with colleagues in Portugal and they have absolutely no data, but are just going with the flow.....lunacy.......

Sorry mate, i don't take the Telegraph seriously, was always a Conservative mouthpiece - well a least when i lived in the UK anyway, i like a bit of objectivity.

In all honesty i dont see a ban continuing, i think its right that its paused and i think its right to be looked into but id be very surprised if it last longer then a few days. In all honesty AZ doesn't have a great reputation amongst the public, the data was messy to beginning with, so the trust in it isnt great and they have been a unreliable partner and some of the shenanigan's haven't been great. I think if there was a menu and alternative i think people would take something else. It kind of plays into a broad profile, AZ will be a part of the vaccine portfolio but its proven unreliable to be a key pillar and i think it will become less relevant in the EU over time, especially heading into quarter 2 which is the key one in the EU. Im not saying its not a great vaccine, id take it, but no point saying it has the same reputation elsewhere then it does in the UK.

Really over here im not sure people are to stressed, i only know health care professionals who were given it here and a few said it will all be sorted by the time dose 2 comes around, the general feel is we are being logically over cautious but we aren't reliant on AZ either so no muss no fuss really. You have to remember we haven't been giving it out to over 70's here, so there isnt a huge cohort of people given it - health care professionals really. So its not such a big deal here as it would be in the UK, nor is it really impacting the roll out to something that cant easily be caught up on in a few days.

 

[tsubaki]

Meanwhile here’s Laura and her account of what happened last year. It’s almost as exactly as you’d imagine it would be, even down to the Downing Street source and how she describes the whole Barnard Castle affair (that she tried to squash):

Covid: The inside story of the government's battle against the virus

Twenty of Downing Street's most senior politicians, officials and former officials take you "into the room" where essential Covid decisions were being made.

www.bbc.co.uk

Next week, Peston has an exclusive look at what really happened - and how everything the ITV political editor reported was wrong.

 

[peteblue]

It's very clear the benefits of being vaccinated far outweigh the concerns over a really rather rare blood clot. Statistically speaking it's not even close the risks are all on one side, the side of pausing and stopping, the numbers and risks involved on each side of the ledger really say we have to be vaccinating.

While numbers on take up are very high for the Pfizer jab they're truly absymal for the AZ one even before this latest episode, with more than 50% refusal across many European countries. A pause for the AZ jab, far from helping will only send this refusal rate rocketing even after any all clear. The reputational damage can't be undone by being given a rather vacuous all clear, of course it can't.

There is already a tendency for side effects to be expected as will always happen when fear, rumours and stories spread. As we've seen before, social media can ignite the flames, fake news can become fact for many and paranoia the normal for all. Some countries have vaccinated hospital staff in one block with many already booking the following day off for the now 'expected' sideeffects. The media then get on board reporting increased absence rates among health professionals, such is the chaotic vaccination program in some countries.

Not vaccinating and then vaccinating over 65's has made the analysis across Europe more problematic but evidence from the US has shown no rise in unexpected thrombotic episodes.

The numbers involved compared to vaccinations given is really very tiny and has to be put in proportion, this isn't a pause without consequences.

There will indeed be consequences. The vaccine rollout across the EU will slow down, the third wave will grow, deaths will increase. Voters will throw out leaders who don’t actually lead and are making a dogs breakfast of the vaccine rollout....They can’t sack anyone in the EU for the initial procurement shambles, but they can vote out the parties that made it worse.....

 

[Amw79]

Meanwhile here’s Laura and her account of what happened last year. It’s almost as exactly as you’d imagine it would be, even down to the Downing Street source and how she describes the whole Barnard Castle affair (that she tried to squash):

Covid: The inside story of the government's battle against the virus

Twenty of Downing Street's most senior politicians, officials and former officials take you "into the room" where essential Covid decisions were being made.

www.bbc.co.uk

Next week, Peston has an exclusive look at what really happened - and how everything the ITV political editor reported was wrong.

Read that earlier. It missed out the entire Xmas debacle, which was an absolute inexcusable mess, but if that’s how bad Laura is reporting it was, suspect it was several orders of magnitude worse.

 

[Neiler]

It's very clear the benefits of being vaccinated far outweigh the concerns over a really rather rare blood clot. Statistically speaking it's not even close the risks are all on one side, the side of pausing and stopping, the numbers and risks involved on each side of the ledger really say we have to be vaccinating.

While numbers on take up are very high for the Pfizer jab they're truly absymal for the AZ one even before this latest episode, with more than 50% refusal across many European countries. A pause for the AZ jab, far from helping will only send this refusal rate rocketing even after any all clear. The reputational damage can't be undone by being given a rather vacuous all clear, of course it can't.

There is already a tendency for side effects to be expected as will always happen when fear, rumours and stories spread. As we've seen before, social media can ignite the flames, fake news can become fact for many and paranoia the normal for all. Some countries have vaccinated hospital staff in one block with many already booking the following day off for the now 'expected' sideeffects. The media then get on board reporting increased absence rates among health professionals, such is the chaotic vaccination program in some countries.

Not vaccinating and then vaccinating over 65's has made the analysis across Europe more problematic but evidence from the US has shown no rise in unexpected thrombotic episodes.

The numbers involved compared to vaccinations given is really very tiny and has to be put in proportion, this isn't a pause without consequences.

Thats a bit hyperdramatic mate, you need to read again what i posted about the concerning clots vs day to day general clot stats. Not sure anyone is judge on jury on AZ, an alert was raised and countries responded. Of course a risk assessment would have done and different countries hae come down one side or the other of the equation. Everyone can have an opinion on that, but quite simply its a pause, why take a risk until its looked into.

Vaccination programmes are continuing to be rolled out, AZ is just one cohort of other approved vaccines, its just a dealy really, that can be made up in days given logistical capacity. So on that bases, pausing for few days, to explore a risk, that hopefully proves unfounded and the delay can be easily caught up on seems sensible to me. No real loss.

AZ certainly has taken a kicking, no point saying they have a great reputation, they dont, i think some Eu politicians over did it alright - Macron for example. But i do think AZ made a series of errors in the pathway and have proven to be an unreliable partner to, so i think that has impact as well.

As i say, Az from my point of view is grand and id take it, its a pity everything that has happened has really, perhaps their reputation is irrevocable in the EU and that would be unfortuante, but im pretty certain knowing what i do Europe will be more then fine.