Current Affairs Coronavirus Thread - Serious stuff !!!

[tsubaki]

If you spend all your time on this forum or Twitter you'd think Boris is on the ropes, but actually I fear this is the real prevailing mood in the country right now.



Do you know what the comparative state spending on healthcare is in the 2 countries Bruce? Genuine question, I don't know and wouldn't know where to look. Germany certainly seems better equipped in terms of hospital and testing capacity. Away from the context of the pandemic there are definitely some problems with the German system but to be fair when it comes to their hospitals they're good (in my experience at least). They do have a certain "2 class" system which can make things difficult for those who are not privately insured to get appointments with specialists. Doctors are incentivised to do what makes them more money rather than helping their patients etc. There are some aspects in which the NHS puts the German system to shame.

It is, and it’s down to how his illness in particular and the governments handling of the crisis in general has been covered.

 

[PhilM]

View attachment 83389

Google 'Flavourly' because they're doing twenty-cans of craft beers for £30 with free delivery and no subscription.

 

[Billy Dean]

https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/news/bundeshaushalt-2020-beschlossen-1641384 says the following. No idea how much of health spending is done by local governments, but 4.3% is quite a bit lower than here, so I would imagine local spending is higher.

After all, https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...espendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29 says UK spending per capita is £2,989, which compares to £4,432 in Germany.

so you could argue then that the fact the German state spends more on healthcare is a bigger factor than the type of system it is? I just found something from the OECD showing Germany spends more as a % of GDP on healthcare than any other EU state (~11%). The EU average is ~9.9% with the UK sitting just below that.

 

[Barnfred 55]

The procurement of patient record systems has been a balls up in my opinion. Interoperability seems minimal, much less any integration with more modern forms of delivery. Care.data was heading in the right direction a few years ago, but that was mothballed as well because the public engagement was messed up. Technology and the NHS has been a litany of disasters for decades.

The problem, and I'm not saying that it doesn't bring benefits in other areas, is that each trust has its own budget. So they are spending possibly hundreds of millions on technology that doesn't speak to each other

 

[witchdoc187]

This is should be the bare minimum and it’s a massive misjudgment (failure) of the government to not have implemented it.

My mate flew back to Oz where he lives and had to stay in a hotel for 14 days in quarantine just as precaution. Everyone has to. Not much point testing for symptoms if most people don't have any and the tests aren't accurate anyway.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

It’s a tough one opening fully the airports again. Will we have something in place for people coming into the country or some kind of screening/quarantine procedure? If we don’t we and every other country run a huge risk of this all kicking off again.

Aren’t the airports still open and still don’t have screening or quarantine procedures, though? Sure I saw reports that flights were still coming from NY without checks this weekend.

They are but we are so far down the rabbit hole, there will be some purchased scientific reasoning to back it all up, don't question the experts!

 

[PhilM]

My mate flew back to Oz where he lives and had to stay in a hotel for 14 days in quarantine just as precaution. Everyone has to. Not much point testing for symptoms if most people don't have any and the tests aren't accurate anyway.

I get your point, but if someone came back showing symptoms (temperature for example) there could then be additional precautionary measures put in place.

We should be aiming to do more than the bare minimum.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The problem, and I'm not saying that it doesn't bring benefits in other areas, is that each trust has its own budget. So they are spending possibly hundreds of millions on technology that doesn't speak to each other

Indeed. The idea of a 'national' health service is something of a misnomer.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

so you could argue then that the fact the German state spends more on healthcare is a bigger factor than the type of system it is? I just found something from the OECD showing Germany spends more as a % of GDP on healthcare than any other EU state (~11%). The EU average is ~9.9% with the UK sitting just below that.

It's possible, but then America spends more than anyone, and their health system is a car crash, so correlation doesn't always equal causation.

 

[PhilM]

so you could argue then that the fact the German state spends more on healthcare is a bigger factor than the type of system it is? I just found something from the OECD showing Germany spends more as a % of GDP on healthcare than any other EU state (~11%). The EU average is ~9.9% with the UK sitting just below that.

Finance will be a part of it of course, but German culture and their almost fanatic desire for precision and careful organisation will also play a part in it.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Finance will be a part of it of course, but German culture and their almost fanatic desire for precision and careful organisation will also play a part in it.

That's also something to consider regarding the Asian nations as well, as Hofstede's power distance stuff pins Asian cultures as being often more hierarchical and collectivist, and people more willing to defer to authority than more individualistic western societies. America has the situation of being both individualistic, governed by a knobhead, and with a healthcare system (and welfare system with regards to sick leave etc.) that discourages people from getting tested/treated. Was reading a study a few days ago about the Ebola outbreak in Sierra Leone, and there was a clear link between willingness to get tested/treated and the speed and spread of the disease.

If we regard the world wars as the moment when America took over economic ascendancy from Europe, I wonder if this outbreak might be what sees the shift away from America to China?

 

[ForeverBlue92]

Just want a kin maccies.

Come on Boris get the drive thrus open

 

[BlueToff]

Agreed mate we all have to pull together under very difficult circumstances. I would really like to see somebody/anybody ask some awkward questions of him though.
I just have this image of him walking into that freezer when tackled about the kid sleeping on the floor in the hospital, and that was the last time I can remember him being asked any awkward questions in public.

Yeh I don't want to come across as defending the gov here. I think they've done a crap job, mainly in a lack of preparation for this.

But as it stands, as crap as the situation is, our plan in terms of not having the NHS be totally overwhelmed is working.

I don't think it's just down to 'media bias' etc that we're not seeing pictures of people laying on the floor of hospitals - which is what we were seeing by this stage in Italy and Spain.

It's not good, and that may well be down to the fact that when people are reaching ICU right now here, a big number aren't making it out. I don't know. But so far the lockdown measures, even though stuff like not closing airports seems counter-productive and yes there are still some idiots having house parties or hanging in groups (those would be the ones having house parties if we were all told to stay in our homes 24/7 btw and not even allowed out for exercise), it seems to be working.

Once we get through this then there should obviously be an inquiry, just as there should be tons of pressure on China.

 

[Walken]

That's also something to consider regarding the Asian nations as well, as Hofstede's power distance stuff pins Asian cultures as being often more hierarchical and collectivist, and people more willing to defer to authority than more individualistic western societies. America has the situation of being both individualistic, governed by a knobhead, and with a healthcare system (and welfare system with regards to sick leave etc.) that discourages people from getting tested/treated. Was reading a study a few days ago about the Ebola outbreak in Sierra Leone, and there was a clear link between willingness to get tested/treated and the speed and spread of the disease.

If we regard the world wars as the moment when America took over economic ascendancy from Europe, I wonder if this outbreak might be what sees the shift away from America to China?

Makes you wonder how much cultural identity and any sort of traditional political ideolgy a nation tends to follow would affect the healthcare system its populace is willing to embrace and how effectively it could be implemented in that nation

 

[BlueToff]

It absolutely isnt.

Everyone (or at least almost everyone agrees) that this lockdown cannot continue forever, and that it will have to lift relatively soon. What has to happen before it does is that we get a proper testing regime that can test large numbers of people, a proper contact tracing system (not the anon app mentioned earlier) and we expand the NHS so it can cope with an influx of cases as well as its normal business. This is what most countries are doing now, and what all the currently "successful" countries did - in some cases without having to lock down. It is also not impossible for us to have set up within two months of the lockdown having begun.

On the surface the FT comment could be read as advocating some of that, but the way the poster describes the protecting of the vulnerable (as impossible unless they are going to be sent to medical camps, which is absurd and hasnt been advocated by anyone), the lack of confidence around a vaccine coming along anytime soon and only increasing NHS critical care (which is not going to do much by itself when some reports suggest currently 50% of people who get that far end up dying) strongly suggests that this is basically a call to stop the financial damage first, then worry about the rest.

It is basically the herd immunity strategy again, which apparently doesn't exist.

Well, that's what was said isn't it?

Right now is about increasing the capacity as much as possible so that when/if a second wave comes the NHS can handle it and there's not a need for another two-three months of lockdown.

I didn't read into it at all like you did. They seemed to present the situation as it is and it's a pretty crap situation. They're not wrong that the only long-term solution is - one way or the other - for most people to have an immunity to this? That doesn't mean we should return to life just yet or even in the foreseeable future.