Copa America 2019

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Double standards where? I mean I'll give you patronizing, it isn't intentional I'm just not going to concede a point because you say it 4 different ways, but the other part I don't get.

For real I was hoping I'd get some kind of first hand about how great Maradona was in that tournament but instead I got he won and Messi didn't and then insulted. You do as you please but I was disappointed.
 
TheBigIguana said:
Double standards where? I mean I'll give you patronizing, it isn't intentional I'm just not going to concede a point because you say it 4 different ways, but the other part I don't get.

For real I was hoping I'd get some kind of first hand about how great Maradona was in that tournament but instead I got he won and Messi didn't and then insulted. You do as you please but I was disappointed.
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*sigh*

You told us to "Just Accept" your opinion that Messi was the bestist ever, then whinged when some said you were plain wrong. Ergo, double standards.
 
TheBigIguana said:
Double standards where? I mean I'll give you patronizing, it isn't intentional I'm just not going to concede a point because you say it 4 different ways, but the other part I don't get.

For real I was hoping I'd get some kind of first hand about how great Maradona was in that tournament but instead I got he won and Messi didn't and then insulted. You do as you please but I was disappointed.
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Maradona was something special, extra special, but then again so is Messi. Perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss Diego, just like some of the older people who saw Maradona and have made up their minds that no one can be better than him? This is something that can't be sorted by stats, Messi wouldn't have half the goals he had if he played in Italy, nevermind 1980's Italian football that were built on solid defences. Messi never had to put up with rough house tactics that used to exist back then or play on pitches that were not immaculate. He has also had the benefit of sports science, nutrition and played in possibly the greatest club team ever seen. The question is how far could Maradona have gone with all that? Impossible to tell, but better to appreciate both than say Messi is better, especially if you never saw Maradona in his pomp live.
 
TheBigIguana said:
Are you not doing the exact same thing? Telling me I'm wrong and insisting you're right?
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Thats a fair point. Conceded.

But if say, I went on a Gridiron site, (do they still call it that?) and started telling Mericans that such and such a player was the bestist ever based on me watching some games for a few years, on telly, can you not see how that could be a bit annoying? Especially if I told them to just "accept it"?

But you are a decent poster, so apologies if I have been a bit stroppy.
 
The binman chronicles said:
Maradona was something special, extra special, but then again so is Messi. Perhaps you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss Diego, just like some of the older people who saw Maradona and have made up their minds that no one can be better than him? This is something that can't be sorted by stats, Messi wouldn't have half the goals he had if he played in Italy, nevermind 1980's Italian football that were built on solid defences. Messi never had to put up with rough house tactics that used to exist back then or play on pitches that were not immaculate. He has also had the benefit of sports science, nutrition and played in possibly the greatest club team ever seen. The question is how far could Maradona have gone with all that? Impossible to tell, but better to appreciate both than say Messi is better, especially if you never saw Maradona in his pomp live.
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Yeah that's fair. It's always an interesting discussion with Maradona and Pele about how good they'd have been in the modern environment. Pele plays some really poor players in the highlights he has but he's also clearly a top level athlete who could have adapted. Maradona is similar. And yes Serie A was gridlock in the 80s in a way Messi doesn't have to worry about. There's a lot of layers to it obviously but the one thing that always tips it toward Messi in my eyes is that he is the best goal scorer, creator and if he played deeper he would be the best forward ball mover in the world at the same time. I don't think there has ever been anyone who has done that. But some of the stuff that measures that obviously doesn't go back far enough to really tell.
 
roydo said:
Thats a fair point. Conceded.

But if say, I went on a Gridiron site, (do they still call it that?) and started telling Mericans that such and such a player was the bestist ever based on me watching some games for a few years, on telly, can you not see how that could be a bit annoying? Especially if I told them to just "accept it"?

But you are a decent poster, so apologies if I have been a bit stroppy.
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The one reddit site I go on for football (not r/nfl which is a mess) is generally not to harsh on foreigners but knowing Americans generally it could get bad I suppose. I don't really care. If you have a point you have a point. I mean as Binman has pointed out Italy was insanely difficult to score in during the 1980s and I honestly hadn't thought of how much that matters.
 
davek said:
The final paragraph tends to destroy the article's own premise.
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Yeah it leaves it a little more ambiguous than I thought when I first saw it but I've also seen other stuff saying how the tactical level of clubs is tough to match at national level. Even if you take it as the upper level is the upper level whether club or international, club form would still be a better indication of overall quality just on the basis of sample size. Players can have good months or bad months at international tournaments that would be mere blips in a club season.
 
TheBigIguana said:
Yeah it leaves it a little more ambiguous than I thought when I first saw it but I've also seen other stuff saying how the tactical level of clubs is tough to match at national level. Even if you take it as the upper level is the upper level whether club or international, club form would still be a better indication of overall quality just on the basis of sample size. Players can have good months or bad months at international tournaments that would be mere blips in a club season.
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The best of the CL versus best teams in the WC:

1/ I dont accept that the quality is comparable for each: SFs at last summer's WC = France-Belgium-Croatia-England; SFs at the last CL = Liverpool-Spurs-Ajax-Barcelona. Any one of those national sides would have annihilated those club sides.

2/ You fail to factor in the HUGE difference in motivation of players who play for their country have in the greatest football tournamant in the world (the greatest competition throughout football history since the 1930s) and their motivation to win prize money and personal career glory trying to win the CL.

This is a ludicrous attempt to elevate Messi via the backdoor of club honours.
 
davek said:
The best of the CL versus best teams in the WC:

1/ I dont accept that the quality is comparable for each: SFs at last summer's WC = France-Belgium-Croatia-England; SFs at the last CL = Liverpool-Spurs-Ajax-Barcelona. Any one of those national sides would have annihilated those club sides.

2/ You fail to factor in the HUGE difference in motivation of players who play for their country have in the greatest football tournamant in the world (the greatest competition throughout football history since the 1930s) and their motivation to win prize money and personal career glory trying to win the CL.

This is a ludicrous attempt to elevate Messi via the backdoor of club honours.
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1. is blatant exaggeration. All 4 of those countries have holes in their teams that couldn't easily be patched up.
2. is probably not true. The amount of effort put in by the RS and Spurs in their comebacks makes it hard to say they weren't motivated.

And even if both of those things were true Messi has still been the best international players in the world over the last decade if you only factor in his performance and not the results of the whole team.
 
TheBigIguana said:
1. is blatant exaggeration. All 4 of those countries have holes in their teams that couldn't easily be patched up.
2. is probably not true. The amount of effort put in by the RS and Spurs in their comebacks makes it hard to say they weren't motivated.

And even if both of those things were true Messi has still been the best international players in the world over the last decade if you only factor in his performance and not the results of the whole team.
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I dont feel there's any traction to your argument.

The CL has a stellar team every decade. At the moment it's a poor tournament quality-wise. The notion that CL football outweighs international tournaments is for the birds.

As for Messi being one of the best international players based on performance: if he'd been that good he'd have produced silverwear. Nine times he's had chances in the WC / Copa to prove his value as a great...nine times he's failed to deliver.

Great player, no question, but never in the bracket of the legends of football. His international failures will see to that. Ronaldo (POR) outranks him...and even he wont get his place amongst the pantheon of football Gods.
 
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