Copa America 2019

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roydo said:
Difference is, he pretty much single handedly won the WC for Argentina. Messi is a really really good player, obvs, but Maradona was better.

Anyrate, almost certain there is a thread about them somewhere.
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I could be wrong but wasn't that squad strong all the way through? I mean Funes Mori started the 2016 Copa final. The ghost of Mascherano has been their best midfielder since the 2014 tournament. You'll know better than me but my understanding was that Argentina 1986 team was good all the way through.

And Messi also did that in 2014 they just fell short by a narrow margin. Go back and review some of those games. It was Messi and not much else.
 
TheBigIguana said:
I could be wrong but wasn't that squad strong all the way through? I mean Funes Mori started the 2016 Copa final. The ghost of Mascherano has been their best midfielder since the 2014 tournament. You'll know better than me but my understanding was that Argentina 1986 team was good all the way through.

And Messi also did that in 2014 they just fell short by a narrow margin. Go back and review some of those games. It was Messi and not much else.
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Nah you're alright. Messi hasnt won the WC. Argentinians hate him. But we have to accept your view that is the best having watched football for 2 minutes.

Like I said. Patronising tool.
 
roydo said:
Nah you're alright. Messi hasnt won the WC. Argentinians hate him. But we have to accept your view that is the best having watched football for 2 minutes.

Like I said. Patronising tool.
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I mean do you have anything to offer beside Maradona won the world cup so he's better? Because the genesis of this was how silly it is to use team success to judge individual players and yet that's all you're doing.

www.theguardian.com

Lionel Messi: traitor to some, genius to all and carrying the heaviest burden | Marcela Mora y Araujo

Some in Argentina revel in the joy Lionel Messi brings, others feel he lacks emotional attachment to his country but can he take surely his final chance to win the World Cup?
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
And this is a decent explanation of why the Argentinian opinion is more complex than they hate him.
 
TheBigIguana said:
The same people who rate Bernard because football is a team sport and makes the team function criticize Messi because his team doesn't function. I guess.
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Oh Christ, I wondered how long you would wait to show you know jack about football by slating him.
 
roydo said:
Oh Christ, I wondered how long you would wait to show you know jack about football by slating him.
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All I'm saying is it is possible to evaluate players outside of the view of the team and very rarely is that done in the Messi vs Maradona argument because it always goes to Maradona won the World Cup and Messi didn't and both of those things are not entirely down to either man on his own. And that is exactly what you've come in here and done. If you play that game should Zidane be ahead of both? He won it in 1998 and carried them to another final in 2006. What about Ronaldo? Romario? David Villa? All of those players should stake a claim to right? It's just weird to me that even though that makes little sense most of the time in this Messi vs Maradona thing it is always what is brought up.

For Argentinians it makes sense. They're going to side with the guy who brought them a trophy. But outside of that bias it's a weird criteria to make or break something.
 
TheBigIguana said:
Do you actually think the standard of play in international tournaments is higher than at the top levels of the club game? I honestly thought it was pretty standardly accepted that club football had far surpassed the international game due to the complexity that 9 months of training a year allows.

I mean look at England's World Cup run. They got to a semi playing teams who's best players were Wahbi Khazri, Somebody on Panama, Hazard/De Bruyne, Sanchez (James was hurt) and Emil Forsberg. Meanwhile Spurs played Messi, De Bruyne, Lozano, Icardi, Reus and De Ligt to get to the CL final. That 1992 breaking point represents a lot of things and one of those is the ascent of the club game above international play.
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Who made that generality up? I've never heard of it.
 
TheBigIguana said:
All I'm saying is it is possible to evaluate players outside of the view of the team and very rarely is that done in the Messi vs Maradona argument because it always goes to Maradona won the World Cup and Messi didn't and both of those things are not entirely down to either man on his own. And that is exactly what you've come in here and done. If you play that game should Zidane be ahead of both? He won it in 1998 and carried them to another final in 2006. What about Ronaldo? Romario? David Villa? All of those players should stake a claim to right? It's just weird to me that even though that makes little sense most of the time in this Messi vs Maradona thing it is always what is brought up.

For Argentinians it makes sense. They're going to side with the guy who brought them a trophy. But outside of that bias it's a weird criteria to make or break something.
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We really need to close this down as other folk probably want to post about the actual thread topic.

I will just say one thing. Old school, weather beaten British football fans are cool with Mericans and the rest of the world taking a growing interest in our league.

But you/they must accept that you/they are a million miles away from understanding the game as we do. Thats why I called you a patronising tool that we should accept your opinion that Messi is the best of all time.

And that really really gets our goat. At Everton, at Chelsea, at anywhere. Enjoy the game, the debate, and the laughs. Just dont bring your Johnny come lately understanding of the game and expect us to accept it.
 
roydo said:
We really need to close this down as other folk probably want to post about the actual thread topic.

I will just say one thing. Old school, weather beaten British football fans are cool with Mericans and the rest of the world taking a growing interest in our league.

But you/they must accept that you/they are a million miles away from understanding the game as we do. Thats why I called you a patronising tool that we should accept your opinion that Messi is the best of all time.

And that really really gets our goat. At Everton, at Chelsea, at anywhere. Enjoy the game, the debate, and the laughs. Just dont bring your Johnny come lately understanding of the game and expect us to accept it.
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Ok but let me just say that this isn't just coming from me. I read stuff, watch stuff, listen to stuff and form opinions from all that. So when I say something it isn't always that I just thought it up. I really like to look at these sort of things and that's why I get frustrated when it feels like all that comes back is the same thing over and over. Whether it's Bernard and his team play being valuable or Maradona having won the world cup meaning everything I get a "that's it?" kind of attitude over it. That's wrong obviously but that's what happens and I get frustrated.

I'll never understand the general British feeling that Americans can't understand the game but whatever I'm not getting into that. And I know none of you do stats at all for whatever reason but who cares here is an article showing that he is clearly the best right now.
fivethirtyeight.com

Lionel Messi Is Impossible

In their Group F World Cup match late last month, Argentina and Iran were still deadlocked after 90 minutes. With the game in stoppage time and the score tied a…
fivethirtyeight.com fivethirtyeight.com
 
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