Copa America 2019

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davek said:
It's a generational thing too. I've seen Cruyff, Maradona and Ronaldo (POR) / Messi (and Zidane in between).

There's no one better than Maradona on that list. Not even close. Messi and Ronaldo (POR) are seen as greats and 'best of all time' by millennials who know no better.
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The "Young people don't know anything" argument. Fantastic.

Maradona is undeniably one of the all time greats but his record at club level is maybe 1/5th of what Messi's is. And club level from the 80s on became the the pinnacle of the game. International footy is fun but the great club teams of today would crush France for instance. And Messi dominates at the highest level of that. The idea that Messi isn't better than Maradona because of international team results is based on so many logical fallacy's it would make a Trump supporter jealous. But Messi is so good that a narrative had to be contrived to knock him down and that is it. And the way you've said it makes it seem like it was made up because people want the guy from their generation to be the best when he's been surpassed.
 
TheBigIguana said:
2016 Messi and Ronaldo are both in a final of an international competition. Messi loses on PKs so he isn't good enough and Ronaldo wins despite being hurt after a half hour and it's a testament to his individual greatness. That makes zero sense.
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How many Nations Leagues has Messi won?

That's the true measure of a player and Messi falls short again.
 
Parker NSNO said:
How many Nations Leagues has Messi won?

That's the true measure of a player and Messi falls short again.
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Ok now that is some top class trolling. But just to say again real quick club level is far superior to international now. Judging Pele primarily by international play is fine. Judging Messi that way is dumb.
 
TheBigIguana said:
The "Young people don't know anything" argument. Fantastic.

Maradona is undeniably one of the all time greats but his record at club level is maybe 1/5th of what Messi's is. And club level from the 80s on became the the pinnacle of the game. International footy is fun but the great club teams of today would crush France for instance. And Messi dominates at the highest level of that. The idea that Messi isn't better than Maradona because of international team results is based on so many logical fallacy's it would make a Trump supporter jealous. But Messi is so good that a narrative had to be contrived to knock him down and that is it. And the way you've said it makes it seem like it was made up because people want the guy from their generation to be the best when he's been surpassed.
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Ha Ha Ha.

Ludicrous.
 
davek said:
Ha Ha Ha.

Ludicrous.
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ijjysmith said:
That is nuts isn’t it?

@BigIgs throws up some proper head scratchers.
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It's not about the quality of players as much as playing together and training together constantly means a team like City would ut terly annihilate an international team with their pressing and inter play. Obviously the French players are plenty good enough but they won the World Cup by just dropping off the Belgians and Uruguayans so they couldn't easily score. Pep would run riot on that.
 
davek said:
As crazy an assertion as there's been on here. The world cup is 'a bit of fun'...like the Sportpesa Cup, no doubt.
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Do you actually think the standard of play in international tournaments is higher than at the top levels of the club game? I honestly thought it was pretty standardly accepted that club football had far surpassed the international game due to the complexity that 9 months of training a year allows.

I mean look at England's World Cup run. They got to a semi playing teams who's best players were Wahbi Khazri, Somebody on Panama, Hazard/De Bruyne, Sanchez (James was hurt) and Emil Forsberg. Meanwhile Spurs played Messi, De Bruyne, Lozano, Icardi, Reus and De Ligt to get to the CL final. That 1992 breaking point represents a lot of things and one of those is the ascent of the club game above international play.
 
Mericans relatively new to football is a welcome thing to me.

Mericans thinking Messi is anywhere near the level of Maradona is just funny. If you doubt me, go ask some Argentinians.
 
roydo said:
Mericans relatively new to football is a welcome thing to me.

Mericans thinking Messi is anywhere near the level of Maradona is just funny. If you doubt me, go ask some Argentinians.
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I mean even if I wasn't American I'd have no recollection of Maradona seeing as I was born after he got done up for drugs in '94.

But this isn't even a worthwhile debate because it's such a generational thing. The people born before you and Davek would be going on about Pele instead. And Argentines have unfairly scapegoated Messi for years now. Look at the midfield and backline he's been playing with since the 2010 World Cup, which Maradona actually ruined by being a crap manager. It's pretty dire. That team isn't at the 2018 tournament without Messi. They don't even qualify. Maradona never had that problem I don't believe.
 
TheBigIguana said:
2016 Messi and Ronaldo are both in a final of an international competition. Messi loses on PKs so he isn't good enough and Ronaldo wins despite being hurt after a half hour and it's a testament to his individual greatness. That makes zero sense.
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Ronaldo crying and shouting from the touchline obvz makes him a better player mate come on
 
YoboCopter said:
Ronaldo crying and shouting from the touchline obvz makes him a better player mate come on
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Honestly the fact that an event literally termed a lottery is the only thing that can still be used as criticism for Messi shows how great he is. A couple coin flips against Chile come up the other side and he's won back to back Copas and no one has any ammo left. What I don't get is why people search for ammo at all. He's the greatest player ever. Just accept and enjoy it.
 
TheBigIguana said:
Maradona never had that problem I don't believe.
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Difference is, he pretty much single handedly won the WC for Argentina. Messi is a really really good player, obvs, but Maradona was better.

Anyrate, almost certain there is a thread about them somewhere.
 
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